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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

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811–820 of 1001 posts

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#811
post #800

> it's important to me to remind people that the US destroyed Iraq in response to 9/11 That is not true. I remember Bush’s address: https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/infocus/iraq/new... I would say that US military doctrine has successfully created the most peaceful era in human history as measured by mortality rate due to conflict, and a fundamental part of that is the willingness to confront adversaries w…

The military doctrine, plans, aims we talked about publicly were unfortunately quite different from the reality of what happened. I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing - I'm talking about the unnecessary and unjustified invasion of Iraq. Yes there hasn't been a world war - but in Iraq there are continuing tribal conflicts. We didn't create an era of peace there. This article says 300k civilians died in the…

And a couple more points:

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationale_for_the_Iraq_War

* 9/11 members were known to be in Iraq (we ignored the significant Saudi presence in actuality for the 9/11 attack)

* In the days immediately following 9/11, the Bush administration national security team actively debated an invasion of Iraq.

* The false claims of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq

* "A study coauthored by the Center for Public Integrity found that in the two years after September 11, 2001, the president and top administration officials had made 935 false statements, in an orchestrated public relations campaign to galvanize public opinion for the war, and that the press was largely complicit in its uncritical coverage of the reasons adduced for going to war.[70][71] PBS commentator Bill Moyers had made similar points throughout the lead-up to the Iraq War, and prior to a national press conference on the Iraq War[72] Moyers correctly predicted "at least a dozen times during this press conference he [the President] will invoke 9/11 and al-Qaeda to justify a preemptive attack on a country that has not attacked America."

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the point of a terrorist attack is to trigger an over reaction I don't agree with that at all, the point of a terrorist attack is to continue a war of attrition. An overreaction is actually the worst thing that can happen to terrorists: It nullifies their attempt to win via small incremental attritional steps. The reason why the US didn't win the war against terror is because it didn't attack the core ideology that…

> US "overreacted" hard and made sure that Germany was forced to make the nazi ideology wholly illegal and every depiction of a nazi symbol in public illegal. The US also poured a massive fortune into rebuilding the West German economy and society, to ensure it wouldn't fall to communism. Violence and repression alone would not have worked.

The US and many other countries also pour massive amounts of money into Palestine: https://www.usaid.gov/west-bank-and-gaza/our-work

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#813
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not the only point of discussing this topic, and definitely not the point of discussing it here. This follows from HN's core principle* because curiosity and battle can't be active at the same time. I agree with you about this: > everyone who clicks on this will have an opinion that’s not, well, academic let’s say ... but as I've explained elsewhere in this thread, I don't think suppressing the topic outright…

It is clearly a charged topic and while you did a good job setting the tone, it clear that moderating this discussion will be a daunting task for anyone. I am already seeing the antisemitic comments calling Jews colonizers, stealing land from indigenous people for 75 years. The one-liners or single-sentence zingers lack context or, often, truth. I do appreciate comments from people living in that area -- what their l…

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't this Hamas's goal all along? They were losing their reason for existing, so they figured out a way reinvigorate hostilities? It looks like they succeeded. > If I lost a loved one at the hands of Israel in such malicious and careless manner, I'm never going to not consider Israel as nothing but an enemy. You could rewrite this as: If I lost a loved one at the hands of Hamas/Israel in such malicious and careless…

The cycle ends once there is true justice. That is: human rights for all (Israelis and Palestinians) and reparations made to those who have been forcibly displaced and killed ever since this conflict began.

agreed, and the idf enforcing equal justice in the west bank instead of allowing settler violence against palestinians to go unpunished and only stepping in when palestinians fight back.

right now, the IDF only perpetuates injustice against palestinians. So the only alternative for them is Hamas. for all the deserved hate Hamas gets, what alternative do palestinian have? the IDF being impartial and enacting justice equally instead of allowing settlers to attack palestinians with impunity would go a long way towards pulling the teerh out of hamas.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#815
post #237

Plenty of Palestinians oppose Hamas and want peace and a free Palestinian state according to the '67 borders. These would be the equivalents on the other side.

In fact, public opposition to Hamas[0][1] is frequently cited[2] as a primary motivation for the 10/7 attack. Gazans widely viewed Hamas as corrupt and the main reason for their destitution, and overwhelmingly preferred Fatah leaders over Hamas (despite having installed Hamas primarily due to Fatah's perceived corruption). The theory goes: if Hamas were to embarrass Israel on the public stage with a humiliating attac…

Alternatively, it could be viewed as the whole purpose behind the attack.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#816
post #802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Ukraine were to bomb a Russian city during the current war, no one would views it as legitimate for Russia to bomb a Ukrainian city back If Kyiv went into Russia to capture children and seniors after gunning down a rave, their Western backing would evaporate overnight. Russia would be vindicated in its claim that their neighbour poses a security threat. Had Hamas hit military installations (demonstrating Israeli…

> Had Hamas hit military installations (demonstrating Israeli impotency) and taken hostages, but treated them well (taking the moral high ground as images of Nonna being served tea and falafel are juxtaposed with those of aerial bombardment), our conversation right now would be very different. Many would argue that this is EXACTLY what Hamas has done, no more, no less. The fog of war is well named. There hasn't reall…

> There hasn't really been any VERIFIED evidence presented to independent media showing that Hamas deliberately killed civilians.

there has been numerous verified evidence the terrorists killing civilians including children:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/18/israel/palestine-videos-...

even the terrorists acknowledged that there are no civilians in Israel, only targets:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67321241.amp

the question is what has become of the world when terrorists are taken for their word?

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#817
post #776
post #2

All: if you're going to comment in this thread, please do not do so in the spirit of battle. The latter is off topic here, and the last thread HN had about this did not do well enough at keeping to the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Instead, ask first whether you can find a place of compassion in yourself before commenting. If you can't, that's understandable, but then please don'…

If you’re going to run a forum where blatant rule breaking comments can’t even be reported, maybe refrain from hosting threads on politics, especially one that attracts people who claim that broiling babies alive is some sort of “resistance”.

There is no evidence to that claim. One baby was killed on Oct 7th, which is horrible, but it was not in an oven, not in a pregnant woman, nor beheaded.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#818
post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could just as easily turn that around and say Hamas (which is the legitimately elected government of Gaza) is responding to continuous attacks from Israel. Gaza is the world’s largest concentration camp, blockaded from land, sea and air. In 2018 and 2019 they held continual peaceful protests, which Israel responded to by killing 223 Palestinians and maiming many more. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%9320…

> blockaded from land, sea and air why do you think that is? why is gaza fenced off?

My personal opinion? Israel’s trying to prosecute its genocide slowly enough that it won’t be noticed / stopped. But if you’re looking for some more expansive reading on the subject you can start here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowing_the_lawn

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#819
post #2

All: if you're going to comment in this thread, please do not do so in the spirit of battle. The latter is off topic here, and the last thread HN had about this did not do well enough at keeping to the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Instead, ask first whether you can find a place of compassion in yourself before commenting. If you can't, that's understandable, but then please don'…

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#820

I honestly don't think this subject should be on here. I don't think it's possible for a coherent or respectful or even useful conversation to happen here. I haven't seen any conversation about this topic that hadn't gone to hell.

Many of us are with you but mod staff and PG have a different opinion :)
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