There's something off about LED bulbs • Hacker News Board

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#811

Post by eig » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 10:35 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #79

eig wrote: post #6

The irony of this article is that the author is suffering from “too much choice”. LEDs have so much more capability than fluorescent and halogen bulbs that the burden has fallen on the consumer to sort out what dimmability, temperature, and lumens they need. It used to be that you only had one option so you didn’t have to think about it. Anyone who works in stage lighting or art knows that light is complicated. We sh…

What if you don't want to become an expert, which is something that wouldn't scale for every piece of tech and equipment? (Maybe you enjoy tweaking with lights, but what about chairs, tabletop materials, woods, wall paints, and yes -- electronic gadgets?). With LEDs, what's the "I don't want to deal with this, I just want something that will work as intended and not introduce weird artifacts"?

I totally agree- that's why I think we need better branding and marketing in stores. I personally like the Costco model of "do the research for the consumer and give them limited choices" but it's easy to see how this could go wrong too.

I'm sure early incandescent lightbulb manufacturers had a lot of shoddy products and consumers just had to figure out which brands to trust themselves. Eventually, it'll even out for LEDs too.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#812

Post by dbg31415 » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 10:40 PM UTC

I think the bulb versions of LEDs really do suck.

Like... I was used to the GE Reveal 100W Incandescent Bulbs. For comparison, the light bulbs with like a slight blue tint to them that just worked great.

I had them all over my house.

But then when I did my remodel, I put in can lights. LEDs.

And the can LEDs are really great.

They're bright, they're the right color, they give off plenty of consistent light. I went with 6" cans, and I used about 50% more than they said to use... so like on the box it said, "Use 4 for a room that's X by Y feet..." And I put in 6. No more than 1 every 8 feet, no less than 1 every 5 feet.

The cans have this little color toggle on the back, the only thing I wish I had done is I wish they were all wifi lights... so that I could use a different warmth after sundown.

But hey, that'll be my next house. (=

I think it's becoming more of an easy option for most contractors to set up.

https://justgetflux.com/lighting/

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#813

Post by Dylan16807 » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 10:40 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #618

xxs wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

12V requires quite a lot of amps for enough light, so low DC is not optimal. Also LEDs are current driven devices, i.e. they will be sensitive to voltage changes (even with a current limiting resistor)

Low-voltage doesn't necessarily mean 12V. I think it's anything below about 50, although lighting systems currently marketed as "low voltage" are usually 12 or 24 volts. The constant current thing is true, but that's not a terribly difficult problem.

It's complicated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_voltage

Depending on who you ask, the limit for low voltage DC might be 42 or 50 or maybe 60 or 120 or 1500.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#814

Post by robocat » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 10:40 PM UTC

amluto wrote: post #769

dredmorbius wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are finned LED bulbs which can fit standard Edison Screw sockets, e.g.: https://www.designboom.com/technology/self-cooling-100-watt-... > https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b5/c2/c5/b5c2c5d69fb240a571ba... > It's also helpful to recognise that existing lighting fixtures and lamps were designed around the constraints of incandescent bulbs. The first generation of LED bulbs and lamps largely conform to these. As LEDs…

I sure hope 12V doesn’t happen. 12V is absurdly low for lighting and needs extremely thick wires to get decent efficiency. 24V is okay. 48V would be nicer for indoor use.

> needs extremely thick wires

Not extremely thick. Wire losses remain similar at 12V as they were at 110V (Replace 100W bulb with a 10W bulb at 12V, current remains ~1A so wire losses stay the same as the were). Wire losses might be say 1W for 1mm2 cabling. 240V example: https://ausinet.com.au/voltage-drop/

Agree that it is worth upping voltage to chase a few more percent savings, but still need to consider other constraints.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#815

Post by robocat » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 10:43 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #789

amluto wrote: post #769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sure hope 12V doesn’t happen. 12V is absurdly low for lighting and needs extremely thick wires to get decent efficiency. 24V is okay. 48V would be nicer for indoor use.

Wiring up a house with 48V for lights and 120V for plugs would be such a pain. Pulling 2 different wires to every room. Weird circuit breakers. Yuck.

Already happens in New Zealand: lighting is usually low current 1mm2 wiring, and everything else is heavier gauge. Circuit breakers mostly care about Amps (all breakers could be rated to mains voltage if you wanted to avoid “weird”).

Also low voltage wiring can legally be done by anyone in NZ (a bonus when doing your own work, and a pitfall when buying a house?)

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#816

Post by Turskarama » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 10:48 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #789

amluto wrote: post #769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sure hope 12V doesn’t happen. 12V is absurdly low for lighting and needs extremely thick wires to get decent efficiency. 24V is okay. 48V would be nicer for indoor use.

Wiring up a house with 48V for lights and 120V for plugs would be such a pain. Pulling 2 different wires to every room. Weird circuit breakers. Yuck.

A lot of countries already have lighting on a separate circuit. It means that when something trips a breaker you don't lose all your lights as well.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#817

Post by ignite » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 10:53 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #213

derbOac wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar reaction to the article. I actually am opposed to bans on traditional incandescent bulbs but vastly prefer LEDs and have no desire to go back to them. Using LEDs was a shock to me initially mostly because, as you point out, with traditional household incandescents there wasn't a whole lot of options. So suddenly when I had to pay attention to color profiles and so forth more carefully, I wasn't expect…

> I actually am opposed to bans on traditional incandescent bulbs AFAIK, there are no simple bans on them [ EDIT: in the USA ]. What exists are energy performance standards, which these bulbs do not meet. If you want, you can say that this is nit-picking, and that of course that's a ban. But when we have energy performance standards for, say, cars, nobody says it is a ban on cars, just a effective end to the producti…

Can't buy incandescents in California anymore. Try on Amazon, it won't sell to you.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#818

Post by Dylan16807 » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 10:56 PM UTC

vikingerik wrote: post #195

DougN7 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just an anecdote, but I’ve had multiple “10 year” LED bulbs fail after just a year or two. I suspect much of the claims for these bulbs are theoretical as they just don’t hold up, probably for reasons the grandparent poster is pointing out.

10 years isn't a minimum threshold for every item. Any individual item could fail any time, and the overall distribution will have a shape somewhere between a bell curve and a long tail. I don't know if there are any regulations around the 10-year claim, but if there are then I'd expect that it's either an average or something like a one-standard-deviation threshold, like 68% last past that but 32% don't. "Guaranteed…

One standard deviation would mean that 16% fail early and 16% last extra long. If the distribution is normal.

Personally I'd want a durability guarantee to be more like two standard deviations, on top of replacement in case of early failure.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#819

Post by Sunspark » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 10:58 PM UTC

int0x2e wrote: post #449

samtho wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LEDs must be powered by a constant-current supply, and distribution does not work well at constant-current, and is always constant voltage. So no matter what you will need some sort of switching power supply. I think the biggest problem is that many cheap power supplies cycle at lower frequencies that cause flickering which is perceptible subconsciously. A modern switchmode power supply might operate in the 50-500k…

The really cheap stuff actually doesn't even have a power supply! There's a breed of LEDs that takes straight AC and rectifies it using the LEDs themselves. By using a large number of tiny LEDs in series (typically in COB form), you can easily reach close to 110v or even 220v, and then you add a small current limiting controller in series that's dirt cheap compared to magnetics... These are super cheap, and appear br…

Branding matters. If your brand is a light that flickers, you might want to consider the old adage penny wise, pound foolish. As a consumer, why would I choose to shop at an establishment that has flickering lights when I could shop at a different one that did not? Unless of course, I had no choice.

But then, a wise entrepreneur would recognize paying extra to have non-flickering signage would attract some customers.

Flickering lights can induce migraines in susceptible people, so literally, saving a penny here actively drives away business.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#820

Post by jon889 » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 11:01 PM UTC

Ok but in the UK (and Europe im guessing) we had the ban on the old bulbs ages ago and yeah it was weird at first and the early LED bulbs were awful blueish white. But the bulbs are the correct color, the packaging has what tint the bulb is. Some people have smart bulbs that can change color completely and dim from apps and voice assistants.

The idea that the old bulbs shouldn’t be banned is ridiculous. You only have to look at other countries than the US to see yes it can be done and yes the world doesn’t end.