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'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

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Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#811

Post by twayt »

Aperocky wrote: post #716
aliasxneo wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a feeling this extends to several areas in Google. I come from the GDC side of things and have the exact same experience. To keep my job requires very minimal effort on my part. In fact, nowadays I'm punishing myself by trying to do anything "above and beyond." This is mostly due to the rapid growth of committees and the struggle for power that has come out of it (i.e., I'm more likely to be denied by a change…

> lack of challenge has actually caused me to spiral into a deep depression Why does this have to be at work? Google might not offer you challenges but you can go rock climbing at Yosemite every other week if you wanted to (or whatever other challenging things you like)? Especially if you only need minimal effort to hang around.

Because you often only get to join these companies if you’re passionate about your field of work.

You can’t force a programmer to find meaning in rock climbing (for example).

You might propose working on your passion for programming outside of work, but it’s complicated and people end up in two minds about that.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#812

Post by lazyasciiart »

goodpoint wrote: post #574
lazyasciiart wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ah, yes...six years at MSFT, only one year working on code that eventually shipped

MSFT is hardly a FAANG

The acronym FAANG was made up/popularized by Jim Cramer, a TV finance guy, intended to be "these companies are going to DOMINATE tech with the BIGGEST MARKET CAPS". Today the market caps are (in billions) 479 (Meta), 2719 (Apple), 1450 (Amazon), 300 (Netflix), 1566 (Alphabet) + 2166 (MSFT). Cramer tried to make an updated version happen in 2021: (Meta, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Alphabet) because Netflix did not explode and Microsoft did not disappear in the way he had predicted.

So yes, IMO Microsoft sits pretty in the no-longer-accurate acronym FAANG.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#813

Post by naikrovek »

groffee wrote: post #647
darth_avocado wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a dead weight and I’ll never be, but I also do absolutely bare minimum to not get fired. And by bare minimum, I mean, I will always finish my work in the time it is expected to be finished. And if the expectations are higher, I’ll move on to another job. I do this as a way to get back at corporate America. Too many companies get away with sucking out their employees dry and firing them once they can’t meet t…

> I am not a dead weight and I’ll never be, but I also do absolutely bare minimum to not get fired. That's the literal definition of dead weight.

Apparently you have never continually excelled at your job and been rewarded with zero raises, zero promotions, zero added trust, and zero added authority or influence.

Every place I have ever worked has taken advantage of anyone who does more than they are asked. None of those individuals were ever rewarded for going above or beyond. Not a single time.

Doing the bare minimum is what employers do. Why should employees do any more?

I believe it is our moral duty to improve ourselves. I do not believe it is our moral duty to donate effort to an unthankful entity.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#815

Post by naikrovek »

codegeek wrote: post #287
fefe23 wrote: post #245

As a consultant, I come around a bit. I have seen many companies with very poor productivity, and in zero of those cases was it laziness of the employees. In fact they usually would have loved to be more productive. Nobody wants to spend their life being dead weight. But as companies grow they install more and more rules and regulations that end up making sure nothing ever gets done. It is not unusual to meet "develo…

"Nobody wants to spend their life being dead weight." I disagree. There are plenty of people who would love to be dead weight just to float around in a company. The larger the team/company, the more chances of those people being around. They pretend to be always busy and doing something but don't actually get anything done. Seen it all for 18+ years. Having said that, there are plenty of people as well who would LOVE…

People want to grow, they want to do better. They also, crucially, want recognition and to feel valued for it. That means they must (must) be treated with respect by their employers, and rewarded or at least recognized when they achieve personal or professional growth.

If you don’t reward and respect people who try to grow, why would they ever continue that?

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#816

Post by ceeplusplus »

qazwse_ wrote: post #561
ceeplusplus wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how you lose to hungrier competitors. TikTok engineers don't work 4 hours a day. Back in the day when Google Plus was coming out, FB engineers didn't work 4 hours a day either [1]. That's how they killed it in the cradle. If you want a chill work life balance, 20 hour weeks, etc. then you can have that. But maybe you won't have the $400k salary that big tech pays anymore. [1] https://www.vanityfair.com/news/20…

Yeah, they're probably working some gruelling 996 schedule, I guess we'll all need to go back to accepting 12 hours a day, 6 days a week to compete. https://www.ft.com/content/174ed2e2-f88e-4759-9a7f-133629aab...

The article claims

> Staff said they were expected to frequently work more than 12 hours a day, starting early to accommodate calls with China and ending late

According to what I see on Blind, this is still the case, so clearly the reporting has not done anything. On the other hand, FB and Google are ramping up their intensity. It's almost like if you have a lucrative monopoly, people are incentivized to work really hard to disrupt it, and you have to work really hard to defend it.

Yes, the failure to kill TikTok was a leadership failure by Zuck. But you need good leadership AND good execution to win. The latter means hard work. Ask yourself why Europe has far fewer major tech companies and startups than the US, even though the EU economy is almost the same size.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#817

Post by analog31 »

To me, this may signal an ominous culture shift. I don't work for Google or Facebook, and don't expect to. (Not sour grapes, just reality). But if a return to a more draconian culture becomes popular with investors, it could eventually trickle down to my little hamlet. Not something I look forward to.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#818

Post by YZF »

fefe23 wrote: post #245

As a consultant, I come around a bit. I have seen many companies with very poor productivity, and in zero of those cases was it laziness of the employees. In fact they usually would have loved to be more productive. Nobody wants to spend their life being dead weight. But as companies grow they install more and more rules and regulations that end up making sure nothing ever gets done. It is not unusual to meet "develo…

Another factor here is that companies will hire more people as a growth strategy without having any clear idea of how to deploy them. Even if they have a high level idea they may not know how to translate that high level idea to something actionable. They have a high P/E. There's cheap money. They need to somehow grow. The only way they know to grow is just to hire more people. As you say, no wonder they don't have anything to work on. Maybe the idea is that if they're working for you they're not working for the competition. I donno.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#819

Post by nrb »

analog31 wrote: post #817

To me, this may signal an ominous culture shift. I don't work for Google or Facebook, and don't expect to. (Not sour grapes, just reality). But if a return to a more draconian culture becomes popular with investors, it could eventually trickle down to my little hamlet. Not something I look forward to.

Draconian culture is an environment that spurs tech innovation by new entrants. If anything, it might cause a mass migration of employees from those outfits into great new companies.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#820

Post by goldenManatee »

wkdneidbwf wrote: post #680
aliasxneo wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a feeling this extends to several areas in Google. I come from the GDC side of things and have the exact same experience. To keep my job requires very minimal effort on my part. In fact, nowadays I'm punishing myself by trying to do anything "above and beyond." This is mostly due to the rapid growth of committees and the struggle for power that has come out of it (i.e., I'm more likely to be denied by a change…

a well paying job with low expectations sounds great, but actually sucks after a while. i’ve been there a couple times. it’s just not fulfilling. it brought out a weird mixture of guilt and sadness in me. i was getting great reviews, and by every measure was doing my job well. when i’ve moved on from those jobs i’ve been happier, grown more, and it’s led to more money.

This is why I don’t understand when some say that people would rather not work at all if given the opportunity and still live well. As people we need challenges to keep finding meaning in our lives. I’ve also experienced depression in the past as a result of getting paid but lack of work. Zuck and Pichai’s complain isn’t wrong, it’s just that they’re part of the problem for paid employees having little work, and it’s admittedly very hard for any of us to recognize when we’re the problem. Everyone suffers from bad leadership, from the employees to the boss.
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