A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#811

Post by Causality1 » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 12:53 AM UTC

mike00632 wrote: post #738

Causality1 wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have that exact situation at work, twice in fact. One woman's nickname is Pookie. Some people are uncomfortable with using that term and they use her legal name. It doesn't bother her. Another man insisted on people calling him "PawPaw". Nobody was comfortable with that, especially the women he borderline harassed every day. He was fired for stealing food out of the break room before the name situation came to a he…

What is interesting is that you value rights... but not for trans people. You wrote many paragraphs about your God-given right to misgender people. Noticably missing is any talk about trans people being able to use public accomodations or have access to medical care or not face discrimination in terms of hiring, loans, services. Like, "compel speech"? Really? You were going to use a pronoun anyways. It's just such a…

That talk is missing because it wasn't the subject of the comment to which I was replying. Misgendering people is dick behavior and terfs are by and large hypocrites. Believing in peoples' rights to say mean things to each other is not the same as advocating for fascistic bathroom restrictions or arguing that trans people don't deserve the same freedom from legal discrimination as any other gender identity or sexuality.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#812

Post by worik » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 12:53 AM UTC

pas wrote: post #646

worik wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Economist has been talking about this for many years.

Could you link something worth reading from them on this?

No. I am no longer a subscriber and their archives are locked down.

The Economist: Best writing with business practices from the nineteenth century....

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#813

Post by lordCarbonFiber » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 12:54 AM UTC

honkdaddy wrote: post #745

makeworld wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. Could you link to this research? This is a fraught topic that includes fraudulent studies and claims like this mean li…

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095578/ I don't think this study is perfect by any means, especially as the data is coming from parents of said teenage girls, but it's a place to start.

Worth noting that that paper not only surveyed exclusively parents but also recruited exclusively from transphobic websites (small wonder the parents found weren't particularly supportive). To the point where the conclusions had to be drastically rolled back and these failures in experimental design highlighted [0].

It's also the start and end of anyone replicating those results. This is very misleading and equivalent to linking the now debunked paper saying vaccines cause autism then telling readers to go look for more research.

For those in the back, trans people are the gender they say they are and the last people you should be asking for their opinion on a person's identity are their unsupportive parents. [0] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#814

Post by pseudalopex » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 12:54 AM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #465

mkr-hn wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them" This isn't actually a thing. Certain factions who would prefer trans people cease to exist push this idea that kids are on this hot new meme of getting their bits flipped before reaching the age of consent, but it is simply not a thing. No top surgery, either. It just isn't a thing. It's a wild fantasy. The only thing kids can go on are puberty bl…

Note that there's comparatively little benefit to puberty blockers in F2M cases, because other than the obvious case of breasts, most secondary sex characteristics, even post puberty, can be radically altered by taking male hormones. So you get very little benefit, but the risk side is a lot less clear. For the same reason, most F2M's will be better off delaying both hormonal and surgical transition until well after…

Middle age means over 40 commonly. Is that what you meant?

Mastectomies leave scars and can have complications. And you seem to ignore the psychological and social aspects of going through opposite gender puberty.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#815

Post by beervirus » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 12:58 AM UTC

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

It’s not about trans people. It’s about VERY LOUDLY having the “correct” opinions.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#816

Post by lordCarbonFiber » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 12:59 AM UTC

btilly wrote: post #578

scubbo wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment that they wish, up to and including surgery. I can understand some caution around the latter part of this quote, given how traumatic, invasive, and costly surgery can be. It is a defensible and reasonable position that there should be _some_ barrier-…

But how can anyone _possibly_ deny the first part? How could anyone contradict an individual who states their own gender - on what grounds can you claim to know how someone feels about themselves better than they themself do? How do you define denying the first part? According to my child's world view, I need to ask them every day what their pronouns are today. And any accidental slip-ups on any adult's part are a de…

How difficult is it to ask a simple question every morning? Or baring that, engage your kid. Could come to a compromise for defaulting to a gender neutral "they" for when you don't know how they're feeling in a given day. Upon which they could give you a reasonable clarification (or you know, just ask).

When your kid's demands are as simple as "hey support my identity, which requires nothing but thinking slightly more about the words you use" how could they not be frustrated when their parent can't even clear that low bar.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#817

Post by rootusrootus » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:00 AM UTC

kingsuper20 wrote: post #526

caeril wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

>There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. I'd say that's a vast overreach. It isn't like the Trans Army is going to come burn down your house. If anything, it's a general notion that transsexuals are mentally ill and that there is something odd about normalizing it. In a sense, that it's not different than people who want their limbs amputated or wear animal costumes a…

> a general notion that transsexuals are mentally ill and that there is something odd about normalizing it.

That seems like a defensible position to take. At least as plausible as the common alternative -- that it is a physical illness (thus we 'fix' the body to match the mind).

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#818

Post by eropple » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:01 AM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #622

eropple wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing as how the historical perspective is almost directly reversed from what you claim, I'm going to have to be skeptical about this. The European-historical aversion to largely one-way nonconforming to gender and sexual roles (men acting as women being a problem, ditto male homosexual behavior) is pretty explicitly due to a rejection of (heterosexual) masculinity translating as a threat to that (heterosexual) masc…

There is certainly a longstanding cultural thread of defending traditional manhood through explicit castigation of male deviants, but notably the source of the explicit castigation is largely from other males. The pushback against trans-women's acceptance as women isn't largely driven by men. It is pretty evenly distributed, or perhaps even more driven by women. The point is that these seem to be distinct phenomena d…

> perhaps even more driven by women

Can you substantiate this? It doesn't match my understanding of the situation either from a cultural or an interpersonal perspective.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#819

Post by xupybd » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:03 AM UTC

mike00632 wrote: post #298

xupybd wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is common in many of the team sports I've played in. The more someone hates their nickname the more likely it will stick. Generally it's only done with close friends.

Yeah, but is such behavior acceptable in the workplace? And is it right to use this behavior as a guide to lessen the legal status of trans people?

I think it is, and it's sad that you have been so heavily downvoted.

We seem to be finding ourselves lacking the etiquette to deal with this situation. Can you do this in the workplace, yes, with the right people and relationships. Can you treat trans people like this, yes, with the right people and relationships.

If ribbing someone causes them to get offended, you leave them alone or it is just bullying. If they come back at you, it's a game, a fun game that builds relationships with the right people.

This is a key element missing from the discussion. In some contexts being purposefully disrespectful is a good thing.

This also means you need to operate in an environment where it's okay to make a mistake, apologise and move on. You have to be able to read the person's response to attempt any of this. You cannot do that over text, so it can't be used online.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#820

Post by rfrey » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:03 AM UTC

throwaway284534 wrote: post #36

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

But I also know a trans woman who is over 6 feet tall and has a beard. She is considering hormone replacement therapy but has not committed yet.

I cannot help but have some empathy for women -- who might have very good reason to be fearful of men -- who are uncomfortable having this person in female-safe spaces. That is 100% independent of the intentions or actual danger posed by this trans woman I know, which is as close to zero as I can imagine.