Earlier quoted context omitted.
A 10% margin also often doesn't tell the whole story of how they make their money. Nearly since its inception, a substantial portion of McDonald's long term profit came from the appreciation of the real estate the stores were built on. Operating a business on it just made it cash flow positive during the holding period. So it was essentially a REIT that happened to operate a fast food chain. Even for many mom-and-pop…
Not to forget the times where states raise their minimum wage and see the number of people in the labor force increase. The balance of power is almost always squarely weighted on the side of the employer. This can push wages below market optimum.
Labor shortage or terrible jobs?
811–820 of 1001 posts
Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?
#812Earlier quoted context omitted.
>If they honestly can't afford to pay a living wage It's not logical to kill businesses by arbitrarily raising the minimum wage. Do you think the people they employ are better off not working at all? These people may not have a decent enough salary, but they get to work as opposed to staying at home and degenerate (mentally and physically). I always thought the better solution is to help them financially in other way…
If raising the minimum wage will do them in, they're already halfway there if things are really [1] that dire and will end up there soon enough. So yes, people are better off not working for those types of businesses. If a business can only remain solvent by paying unreasonably low wages, it puts downward wage pressure on competing businesses and traps unskilled workers in a labor pool of dead-end jobs with little ho…
That’s an OK life.
Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?
#813Earlier quoted context omitted.
If raising the minimum wage will do them in, they're already halfway there if things are really [1] that dire and will end up there soon enough. So yes, people are better off not working for those types of businesses. If a business can only remain solvent by paying unreasonably low wages, it puts downward wage pressure on competing businesses and traps unskilled workers in a labor pool of dead-end jobs with little ho…
> [1] I'm suspicious of the majority of cases where this claim is made. A rational business person would see that such a business is already marginal and that they would likely be better off shutting it down and redeploying the capital elsewhere for a better return. This happens all the time. If the owner can't see this, keeping the business on life support isn't doing anyone any favors. I agree with you, I would nev…
Arguably there are way too many restaurants, in part due to low interest rates. If there were fewer restaurants, the volume would go up and the average restaurant would do a larger gross and be able to handle low or lower margins.
Consider that if someone lived through the last time the US had significant price inflation as an adult, they are 70+ years old. Costs are going up for anything with tight supply, including for labor. Very few working age adults, or business owners, have any experience with that. The transition will be alarming and painful but there is no back peddling now. Businesses with slim margins and an inability to rapidly raise prices just will fail.
Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?
#814Earlier quoted context omitted.
Right, and raising the minimum wage is an attempt to control that by putting the costs back on the employer.
Who will simply either pass the costs along to the consumer, or shut down.
First, inefficient employers like McDonald's have an entrenched position in the industry because of their massive scale and their real estate holdings. A new entrant in the market already has an uphill battle - if they don't want to rely on government subsidies (e.g., because they want to attract employees who would rather be paid directly for their work), their task is even harder.
A free market in the sense Adam Smith meant it - not a free-for-all, but free to enter - would treat it as a policy goal that new companies would have a fair shot at competing.
I'd understand the argument that government welfare and a low minimum wage are important to support new entrants, by making it possible for them to compete against the entrenched companies. But that's not what's happening; it's the entrenched companies that are effective beneficiaries of these policies (cf. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-...).
Second, passing the costs along to the consumer along with raising wages has the effect of increasing the purchasing power of low-income consumers. If the minimum wage goes from X to 2X, which causes the cost of items at McDonald's or Wal-Mart to go from Y to 2Y (which it won't, because labor costs aren't the entire costs, but for the sake of argument assume they are), then people being paid the minimum wage are in basically the same position for their everyday purchases: they get twice as much money, but they spend twice as much money. But they've also got larger expenditures - renting or buying a home, buying a car, paying medical bills, etc. The cost of emergency surgery isn't going to double just because the minimum wage goes up (even though much more of the cost is labor) - surgeons are paid way above the minimum wage already.
What this means is that people being paid a high minimum wage are equally able to live their ordinary lives, because they can afford the increased cost of goods made by other minimum-wage employees, but they are more able to make expenditures that improve their lives (e.g., more able to deal with medical issues before an emergency) - and more able to make purchases that stimulate the economy. Instead of buying N hamburgers a year and a car that costs Z which they use for five years, they can now buy the same N hamburgers a year and a car that costs 1.2Z.
As long as government policy continues to enable both wages and prices remaining low, the economy is stuck.
(It does mean that the relative purchasing power of rich consumers goes down - they can buy the same number of vacation homes, but they can't buy as many McDonald's hamburgers - but that hardly seems like a concern. You can only eat so many hamburgers, and they're probably not buying very many hamburgers from McDonald's anyway.)
Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?
#815Earlier quoted context omitted.
No. It was only allowed to develop after making deep concessions to imperialism, including special economic areas where capitalism is allowed. Thankfully the working class is still in control of the state, as we’ve seen the limits on capitalism tightened recently, especially during covid.
You think the working class is in control of China? The working class that has nets installed in their job provided dormatories because too many of them are commiting suicide? Those people are nearly slaves.
Vietnam made a similar choice in a similar position. In both countries working conditions and labour laws have been steadily improving. This change is only possible if the workers as a class are in control of the state.
Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?
#816Earlier quoted context omitted.
As I said, first the imperialism would stop. No more military threats, no more WTO enforcing unfair rules, forgiving all IMF loans, etc. That would allow trade to no longer be based such an extreme difference in the price of labour, so the victim countries could retain a majority of the value of their labour. By no longer losing value to profits at every step of production and distribution, consumer prices wouldn’t h…
> That would allow trade to no longer be based such an extreme difference in the price of labour That doesn't make sense. The entire reason the WTO was interested in China (and any other poor country) was because they had cheap labor. It's not like the WTO is depressing wages. >By no longer losing value to profits at every step of production and distribution, consumer prices wouldn’t have to increase Wait, we pay eve…
Solar panels are quite useful in many poor countries, actually. But indeed much more is needed in terms of means of production: agricultural equipment, infrastructure, factories, etc. Expertise and technology (which are restricted by IP laws) are also needed. All of this is what the Belt and Road Initiative does.
If you look at it over time, the poor countries only get poorer over time. It may not be a zero sum game, but development is actively prevented. The only exceptions are countries where workers have at least some control over the state.
That’s where the solution lies: ending the control of capitalists over the world. The poor countries have succeeded a few times with good results, but the rich countries doing it would have a much bigger impact.
Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?
#817This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…
Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?
#818Earlier quoted context omitted.
>>15 USD is still less than if you had adjusted the original minimum wage for inflation, so come on. This is a myth that is often repeated, but I have yet to see it proven. The Original Federal Min Wage was passed in 1938 and was $0.38 per hour, Adjusted to 2021 that would be $7.14 In 1981 it was raised to $3.35, in 2021 dollars that would be $9.76 In 2009 it was raise to where it is today, $7.25 ($0.66 lower than a…
What is inflation? If computer processing power becomes cheaper an cheaper, but real estate housing value double in a decade, we have 2% inflation?
Given the context this would be the standard model upon which dollars are adjusted for inflation over time, tools like usinflationcalculator.com make this easy to factor in what that would be
If you want to shift the debate to "what is inflation" that is fine, but that is not the debate I am having in this comment thread
Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?
#819This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…
I always found the idea that restaurants need to compete on price strange. A typic Mexican restaurant is always going to lose to Taco Bell on that, so raising the price of your enchiladas or margaritas probably won’t have much impact on traffic.
We read a lot here about founders not setting prices high enough (see patio11 for tons of discussion). Or comment on backblaze being very hesitant to raise prices [0], but then buy into this idea that restaurants have set their prices optimally and that business will plummet if the $15 dish is suddenly $17. The truth is very few decisions on where to eat are driven by price (except at the high end) and instead are driven by experience and location.
Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?
#820Earlier quoted context omitted.
> some people will shift from A to B. 1. Is this number at all significant? 2. Should theory prevent working Americans from having a decent life given that empirically restaurants and cafes are plentiful in Europe and are filled to the brim with customers?
1. Perhaps. Difficult to know the extent exactly. My guess would be yes, given theory, but we'd need a natural experiment to find that out. 2. This particular thing isn't really an argument against minimum wage, although I personally am not automatically in support of it for other reasons. I can see an argument that it creates poverty by making unskilled workers unable to compete with lower skilled labor overseas for…
You're kidding, right? You're sayig that minimum wage robs people of ability to get a foothold in the economy?
Please enlighten me how "getting a foothold" works for people that have to work several jobs just to barely keep afloat?
> It's also rather intrusive and authoritarian, if two people want to get together and exchange one hour of X for $Y then I don't see that as any of your business
What about if a bunch of people come together and agree this is a good thing? Oh, wait, that's called a government, and laws, and common human decency.
> this is more a point of personal values and it's more productive to focus on the utilitarian part of the argument.
Indeed. Because your personal argument basically devolves into: if you want to keep slaves or indentured servants, who am I to keep you from doing that?