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MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#811

Post by amanaplanacanal »

ars wrote: post #499
filleduchaos wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminder that the Confederate battle flag was in use for less than five years and solely as an icon of a conflict that was very much about the (rather racist) keeping of chattel slaves. Before trotting out the "it's a symbol of heritage" line, ask yourself exactly what that heritage is.

I will admit that until about 2 years ago I had absolutely no idea the flag was racist. I thought it was simply a southern symbol. Some comment I saw online made me research it, which then made me aware of other symbolism it has. So don't be so quick to assume racism in those who fly it.

If it becomes well known that it is a racist symbol, the people who were unaware will abandon it. Then all that will be left is the racists.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#812

Post by grawprog »

sukilot wrote: post #309
rsynnott wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume Microsoft never allowed, say, swastikas. There's no reasonable expectation that you are able to spread racist propaganda in a car racing game (or for that matter in an actual car race; I think those tend to have very strict rules around decoration). I can see an _argument_ that Twitter, say, should be forced to pander to racists. I don't buy that argument, mind you, but I can at least see the thought process…

That's an argument for banning swastikas, not banning anyone who displays a swastika. And before you say "come on, swastikas are pretty extreme", remember the moral panic we just went through when 4chan trolls convinced people that the OK hand sign was a "one-sided version ofna White Power" sign and got people fired from their jobs for making the sign.

I thought it was a better meme personally when Malcolm in the middle made it so everyone would do the ok sign below their waist and if you looked, you got a punch in the shoulder.

That definitely went on for a couple years when I was a kid, to the point where everyone got really sick of those few people that didn't get when it stopped being funny.

That's the thing though, all it takes is one meme to take off to change the meaning of a symbol and you can't really predict what or how.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#813

Post by pelliphant »

sukilot wrote: post #309
rsynnott wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume Microsoft never allowed, say, swastikas. There's no reasonable expectation that you are able to spread racist propaganda in a car racing game (or for that matter in an actual car race; I think those tend to have very strict rules around decoration). I can see an _argument_ that Twitter, say, should be forced to pander to racists. I don't buy that argument, mind you, but I can at least see the thought process…

That's an argument for banning swastikas, not banning anyone who displays a swastika. And before you say "come on, swastikas are pretty extreme", remember the moral panic we just went through when 4chan trolls convinced people that the OK hand sign was a "one-sided version ofna White Power" sign and got people fired from their jobs for making the sign.

Isn't "banning anyone who displays a swastika" a method of enforcing "banning swastikas" ?

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#814

Post by amanaplanacanal »

naasking wrote: post #537
paulchap wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that laws that dictate companies how they have to manage their property are inherently bad. > Consumer protection law should protect consumers, not their convenience. My comment was targeted at the claim that mild censorship on privately owned platforms should be regulated in such a fashion, because their users depend on it. If you sign up for something, you should know what you sign up for. It's perfec…

> My comment was targeted at the claim that mild censorship on privately owned platforms should be regulated in such a fashion, because their users depend on it. If this incident happened in a vacuum, I would agree. Unfortunately that isn't the case. The censorship ranges from mild to extreme these days, and now even the mild cases drive the wedge deeper. The unrest in the US is only just beginning I think. Anyway, t…

Private property is not the only thing that matters, but Congress cannot taking away a company’s free speech rights, per the constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court.

You might not like it, but that is the current reality. Personally I like it. I would much rather have corporations decide which speech is allowable on their platforms than have the government decide which speech is allowable.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#815

Post by js2 »

grawprog wrote: post #812
sukilot wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an argument for banning swastikas, not banning anyone who displays a swastika. And before you say "come on, swastikas are pretty extreme", remember the moral panic we just went through when 4chan trolls convinced people that the OK hand sign was a "one-sided version ofna White Power" sign and got people fired from their jobs for making the sign.

I thought it was a better meme personally when Malcolm in the middle made it so everyone would do the ok sign below their waist and if you looked, you got a punch in the shoulder. That definitely went on for a couple years when I was a kid, to the point where everyone got really sick of those few people that didn't get when it stopped being funny. That's the thing though, all it takes is one meme to take off to chang…

> do the ok sign below their waist and if you looked, you got a punch in the shoulder

This was going around my college friends in the early 90s, predating Malcom in the Middle (2000-2006). I have no idea where it originated.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#816

Post by angry_octet »

angry_octet wrote: post #404
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nazi flag is inarguably racist propaganda. The Confederate flag, however, has for decades been a symbol of southern pride for many people. I read somewhere recently that over 40% see it as a symbol of heritage more than racism.

This is the Lost Cause revisionist history fallacy at work. It is an early analogue of the recent technique used by Pepes, the white power sign, Neo-Nazi '88' and '14' iconography, etc: giving an in-group meaning to an innocent number, phrase or image to give a superficial plausible deniability. The Confederate flag is even more powerful because people have been convinced it has something to do with Southern (white)…

It's interesting to watch the votes oscillate. For a little while it plunged into grey obscurity as rascists and Confederate battle flag lovers each savaged with the little down triangle, but alas, not leaving a comment to explain which they were. Then back up, up, to dizzying heights of black text again, and now back down, down to the mediocre 1 point which doesn't do justice to its story.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#817

Post by rsynnott »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #536
notyourday wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it was even in Gothamist. So I'm sure it is also in NYPost and Daily News.

https://cms.prod.nypr.digital/images/62499/fill-661x496/ Found this on Gothamist. Can you point to the swastika? Or is this a different NYC Subway campaign for The Man in The High Castle?

Ah, yeah, that's not at all as bad as I was thinking.

Though still a bit... off, to be honest.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#818

Post by angry_octet »

ars wrote: post #515
Lendal wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dukes of Hazzard was my second-favorite TV show as a kid, (next to CHiPs.) It saddens me that the symbol was foisted on me and millions of other kids throughout history and not just from the TV show. Turns out there was never a time that that flag stood for anyone's "heritage." It always was a symbol of hate. I don't know why people would do that to children. Now memories of my childhood are darkened, and millions of…

It was not used as a racist symbol in the show. That's what this whole discussion is about. For example: "After the first season, it distressed producer Gy Waldron that the cast was entirely white. So in subsequent seasons, visiting federal agents that investigated Boss Hogg were black, as was the sheriff of the adjoining Chickasaw County." https://www.neatorama.com/2011/05/04/23-facts-you-might-not-...

That the FBI agents were Black seems more like an allusion to desegregation, and Federal Government interventions in general.

If he had really wanted to do something he could have introduced a regular POC character.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#819

Post by stiglitz »

serf wrote: post #669
FireBeyond wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's what you got out of this, I'm not sure what to say. I even used the SCUBA shop, which is next door, for reference. No-one that I've seen has advocated that the OK sign be abandoned for divers. I've been mid mouthful at a restaurant when a server has asked how my food is and I've made this sign and not been called a racist. However, should I and half a dozen of my buddies, armed an in full tactical gear, sta…

>However, should I and half a dozen of my buddies, armed an in full tactical gear, standing 10 ft from a BLM protest, waving my Confederate flags, all choose to make this sign for a photo, then a _reasonable person_ may choose to interpret this as "we know exactly what we're implying here, and we're not all just telling the cameraman that "everything is perfect"." yeah, but that's the story required for your credulit…

Hi, sorry, but “credibility” is the word you and GP want. “Credulity” has basically the opposite meaning. Sorry.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#820

Post by grawprog »

js2 wrote: post #815
grawprog wrote: post #812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was a better meme personally when Malcolm in the middle made it so everyone would do the ok sign below their waist and if you looked, you got a punch in the shoulder. That definitely went on for a couple years when I was a kid, to the point where everyone got really sick of those few people that didn't get when it stopped being funny. That's the thing though, all it takes is one meme to take off to chang…

> do the ok sign below their waist and if you looked, you got a punch in the shoulder This was going around my college friends in the early 90s, predating Malcom in the Middle (2000-2006). I have no idea where it originated.

I never knew, I know that's what popularized it for kids around my school around grade 5 or 6. Now I'm curious where that actually came from.
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