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James Damore and three others end Google suit

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Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#811

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine, since you’re going to be persistent about insulting me, I’ll take the bait and explain this carefully. Humans don’t have the time, energy, or interest to evaluate every scrap of information about other people. Instead humans regularly use heuristics when meeting people for the first time, to save time and mental energy. One of these heuristics involves making assumptions about people based on the company they k…

You're conflating going on a talk show to share your story and being friends with people. I also don't really get your point. It seems like you're saying some people will incorrectly judge him because of the talk shows he went on. Okay, so?

You didn’t read fully. I made it clear that group membership is one thing that people will judge on. Group membership would plausibly include those who go onto specific TV shows.

And yes, literally my entire point was that people will judge him for going on talk shows.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#812
post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, because the cause is uncertain, we should not discuss female under-representation in software development at all?

I don't think that the cause is uncertain. Broadly speaking, the cause is sexism. What I'm saying is that there is no evidence whatever for a biological cause, and it is harmful to speculate wildly on biological causes in the absence of evidence.

This seems like a strange argument, given the start to this entire subthread ("women used to be the majority").

Let me get this straight:

1. Most women were programmers.

2. Women aren't sexist, so they let men in.

3. Men overwhelmed the women.

4. Men are sexist, so they stopped letting women in.

5. Now we need to deliberately reverse the results of stage (4).

Is that the sequence of events as you see it?

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#813

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just architecture, also medicine and law. The whole question is what's different about math, CS, engineering and the physical sciences that makes it so much harder to reach gender balance there? If you look at the commonalities that these fields share, the "things, not people" aspect is the most prominent by far.

Microbiology is “things, not people” and is far more balanced.

One counterexample doesn't "disprove" the correlation. (Mostly because the example is in the correlation already, and the correlation holds, plus it's just a correlation.)

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly want to meet techbros. I live in some sort of echo chamber where gender is so irrelevant to most participants. I have never seen anyone ask someone's gender on a github issue, I may have missed it but I have seen few issues opened because no inclusivity. No one in any of the programming communities I am in gives two shit about the gender of the participants. Most people have pseudonyms with anime avatars a…

Honestly, they aren't in github issues. They are on Twitter, they are sending people DMs, they are at physical meetups. Me and my wife are both AI academics in the UK who do a bunch of programming. I have no "interesring stories" to tell, my wife has a dozen including men punching walls because they were beaten by a woman in a board game, being sent death threats and dick pics (not from the same person), and being as…

> Twitter

> Toxicity

Probably you don't need to go further than that.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#815
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just architecture, also medicine and law. The whole question is what's different about math, CS, engineering and the physical sciences that makes it so much harder to reach gender balance there? If you look at the commonalities that these fields share, the "things, not people" aspect is the most prominent by far.

How is architecture any less about 'things' than software engineering? The 'things vs people' dichotomy is extremely vague and obviously bullshit. Is Facebook not about people? Airbnb? Uber? It may be that these companies, perhaps inadvertently, choose to hire people who don't focus on the people-related aspects of their roles. But it's obvious that empathy and an interest in people would in fact be very useful at ma…

Architects design buildings for people, take people's needs into consideration, etc.

Software naturally has that side too. And Google is ironically pretty bad at this, because somehow it always ends up too borg-ish. They do need more people-focused people, but so far they ended up just selecting for people who are willing to work for them, but haven't really changed. (Ironically, Damore was right in this.)

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#816

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damore never claimed women were intrinsically less inclined to engineering. He cited the big five personality trait model as evidence for why engineering culture is not welcoming to women.

Personality traits that are intrinsic, thus suggesting women are intrinsically less inclined to engineering. (Note: I don't agree with the thesis, but that's the implication).

I think the good-faith view of this is that Damore claimed that were engineering changed a bit it'd be more appealing to women. So women - according to the thesis - intrinsically less inclined to do SW engineering as currently practiced.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagge...

https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/01/gender-imbalances-are-...

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damore hasn't said much of his idealogical beliefs publicly and I think it's unfair to criticize him on his choice of legal counsel because he just wants to be well represented which is his right. Regardless of your political beliefs Dhillon is an accomplished attorney. Other attorneys on the left in California don't want to touch the case because of the pearl-clutchers and public political implications so the enemy…

> Damore hasn't said much of his idealogical beliefs publicly That’s all he needs to say to make his beliefs clear. If the whole country (minus some “open-minded” tech bros) thinks you’re a sexist jackass and you do nothing to correct them, I wonder...

Why do his beliefs even matter? Are we supposed to burn him at the stake at the end if he's got the wrong ones?

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just architecture, also medicine and law. The whole question is what's different about math, CS, engineering and the physical sciences that makes it so much harder to reach gender balance there? If you look at the commonalities that these fields share, the "things, not people" aspect is the most prominent by far.

That doesn't follow suit with the history of computer science however. Women were a large amount of computer science grads back in the 70s and 80s where it was even more difficult and arguably less social then modern development. Nowadays software dev is highly collaborative and social. It faced declining amounts of graduates that were women from the late-80s and onwards compared to engineering and the physical scien…

Women are the majority of CS grads in Saudi Arabia, and you'll find that they are many women studying CS in third-world countries that typically are less "gender egalitarian" than Western countries.

In wealthy, western countries giving men and women the choice of what to study without having to think too much about where they'll end up in society, that's where you see the most gender imbalance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#819
post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish there was a short way to ask for links without sounding confrontational but maybe this preamble will suffice for this message. Do you have any links about these refutations? Thanks.

This article cites two of them and goes into some of the places where Damore made unjustified leaps in logic. https://www.wired.com/story/the-pernicious-science-of-james-... Here is another that is more detailed but doesn't talk mention individual scientist opinions https://heterodoxacademy.org/the-google-memo-what-does-the-r...

I read through the first article.

>Damore’s assertion that men and women think different is actually pretty uncontroversial, and he cites a paper to back it up, from a team led by David Schmitt, a psychologist at Bradley University in Illinois and director of the International Sexuality Description Project. The 2008 article, “Why Can’t a Man Be More Like a Woman? Sex Difference in Big Five Personality Traits Across 55 Cultures,” does indeed seem to show that women rate higher than men in neuroticism, extraversion, agreeableness, and conscientiousness

Good. Wired article agrees women rate higher on neroticism.

> The first-order criticism here is easy: Damore oversells the difference cited in the paper. As Schmitt tells WIRED via email, “These sex differences in neuroticism are not very large, with biological sex perhaps accounting for only 10 percent of the variance.” The other 90 percent, in other words, are the result of individual variation, environment, and upbringing.

In Damore's memo, on the subject of trait differences between men and women Damore writes:

"I’m not saying that all men differ from all women in the following ways or that these differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Many of these differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population level distributions."

This is written right under an illustration of two overlapping bell curves with one curve shifted slightly to the right as an example of the overlap he is talking about. It's hard for me to take anyone as honest interlocutor if they are interpreting this as "overselling the difference" as the Wired author does.

On the subject of whether the differences are biological or cultural, Damore cites the fact that trait differences are consistent across cultures and that they are linked to prenatal hormones and heredity, among other points. Perhaps the extent to which trait differences are cultural or genetic is more debatable, but it is beside the point of Damore's essay. Whether trait differences are biological or cultural, Google still acts within a context that they exist . Damore's argument does not hinge on the differences being genetic.

Wired writes:

>Women as a group score higher on neuroticism in Schmitt’s meta-analysis, sure, but he doesn’t buy that you can predict the population-level effects of that difference. “It is unclear to me that this sex difference would play a role in success within the Google workplace (in particular, not being able to handle stresses of leadership in the workplace. That’s a huge stretch to me),” writes Schmitt. So, yes, that’s the researcher Damore cites disagreeing with Damore.

The researcher is saying that it is unclear to him if neuroticism would play a role in Google employment. That is not exactly disagreement, more the researcher saying he doesn't know. Damore is actually in a better position to judge than the researcher as Damore is not only aware of the research, but also employment practices at Google.

Furthermore, the researcher isn't calling this an unjustified leap in logic or disputing Damore's evidence or interpretation of the facts, just the conclusion. That's perfectly fair, but it isn't fair to take a point like "It isn't clear to me if neuroticism affects Google employment" and act like that is a rejection of the Damore memo. The conclusion isn't clear to one researcher.

Wired:

>In general, he notes, women prefer to work with people and men prefer to work with things—the implication being that Google is a more thing-oriented workplace, so it just makes sense that fewer women would want to work there. Again, the central assertion here is fairly uncontroversial. “On average—and I emphasize that, on average—men are more interested in thing-oriented occupations and fields, and that difference is actually quite large,” says Richard Lippa, a psychologist at Cal State Fullerton and another of the researchers who Damore cites.

Again, the researcher and the Wired author admit Damore has the right science and shrug at the question of whether the science can be applied to Google. As before, the researcher is not rejecting the conclusion and is not claiming Damore misrepresents the facts. The researcher is saying that they do not know if the conclusion can be reached.

Damore lists "pre-natal testosterone" as a biological cause of sex trait differences and then links those differences to different career preferences. Wired writes:

"Still, most hormone researchers agree that these differences are real. But that they’re directly linked to prenatal testosterone? Not so much. And to differences in career choice? “There’s 100 percent no consensus on that,” says Justin Carré, a psychologist at Nipissing University in Ontario. “The human literature on early androgen exposure is really very messy.”"

Again, there is conflicting literature and evidence and the point is debated, but what the "actual researcher" says is not "Damore made an unjustified leap in logic" but rather, "There's 100 percent no consensus on that".

That's it as far as scientists responding to Damore goes - or perhaps I missed something more substantive?

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#820
post #755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how free speech dies. I despise Trump and the right, but the outrage mob and the left is just as bad (and probably more effective) with their ability to destroy peoples' livelihoods for expressing any opinion or questioning the left's dogma.

No it isn't. Free speech means you can't be prosecuted for speech. It doesn't mean people can't hate you. You're literally up here telling me I shouldn't speak. What's the difference between saying women are inferior and saying sexists are inferior? The answer is that I'm actually correct.

> "Free speech means you can't be prosecuted for speech. It doesn't mean people can't hate you."

Would you have said that to people in the civil rights movement or the labor movement? They were hated and mistreated by many as well and yet your words would have justified that.

The sword always cuts both ways. Your viewpoint will hurt causes you believe in just as much as causes you oppose.

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