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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#811

Post by marliechiller »

madaxe_again wrote: post #751
rdm_blackhole wrote: post #699

I guess one thing that many people are missing is why the "leave" vote won in the first place. If Europe is so great why did some people had the desire to leave it? Surely they were not all brainwashed or lobotomized? The EU is now trying to make the UK pay an extraordinary price in order to warn the other countries that leaving the EU is not a choice to be taken lightly. This kind of technique is known as bullying a…

Flooded by migrants, eh? Did they come in a wave? A tsunami? Did their little beady rat-like eyes and their smell offend you? Dress it up all you like, but you’ve just broadcast “I’m a xenophobe” loud and proud.

thats quite a stance. Like it or not, there is a huge influx of migrants into the EU. Acknowledging this does not make one a xenophobe and labelling someone with that opinion causes all sorts of divisions and further issues. In fact, your rhetoric is actually one of the main drivers spurring vote leave. People with valid opinions being labelled as racist only further entrenches their beliefs that they are not being listened to

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#812

Post by padraic7a »

asabjorn wrote: post #736
alasdair_ wrote: post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything seems to be going as planned. "The United Kingdom should be cut off from Europe.[9]" "Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian pr…

Yes, the KGB defector Yuri [1] said as much. He describes a slow distruption they started of America by infiltrating the education system. This attacks the weakness of a democracy, which is the fact that it’s run by people for the behest of itself as a system and does not answer to an estate that would otherwise check its malfunctioning. However, that doesn’t mean the movements of dissent is caused by this. They coul…

That's conspiracy theory nonsense.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#813

Post by nicky0 »

bertil wrote: post #687
microcolonel wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This form of condescension is a major part of why remainers have utterly failed to make their case. Remainers clearly believe they are better than brexiters, but do not address the issues which matter (lack of control on political matters which affect the lives of average people: trade, standards, communications, intellectual property, immigration) to the people they are ostensibly trying to convince. The Brexit refe…

The argument about lack of control is not true: Uk has had very significant influence over a lot of the decision process in the EU. They have democratically elected representatives and career civil servants, like for local and national institutions in the UK. A British voter doesn’t control EU any less than they control the UK.

Not so. The UK parliament is at the root of democratic authority in the UK. The European Parliament is a largely powerless rubber-stamping body.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#814

Post by timje1 »

mk89 wrote: post #765
alasdair_ wrote: post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything seems to be going as planned. "The United Kingdom should be cut off from Europe.[9]" "Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian pr…

What else do you expect from Russia or any other country that tries to overpower the others? It's just like nature, when the lion takes over the group and he is constantly challenged. Now, if someone challenges you and you are easily defeated, then it means you don't deserve to be the leader. If our leadership is failing, then so be it, they don't deserve to rule the world. Blaming brexit on Russia is new to me, albe…

That's not particularly productive thinking: should we test buildings by bombing them - if they fall over, they didn't deserve to tower so high?

The world would be a lot better if a country that detects weakness in another didn't immediately look to exploit this. We can say it's human nature but when we start to talk about 'deserving' an outcome, we start to talk about the world like it's dogfighting.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#815

Post by jayalpha »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #607
yholio wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no Canada+ on the table and there never was, it's just "Canada" without the "+": a set of trade liberalization measures that cover some physical goods and very few services. It's a bad match for Britain's needs: http://www.policyreview.co.uk/eu-uk-canada/ It's hard to understand why Germany or France, who stand to gain from excluding the powerful UK service sector from the EU financial markets, would think t…

The gains that Germany and France will make in EU oriented financials services will pale in comparison to the loss of a major trading partner. Remember that the EU is becoming less and less important over time as a financial services market, even the UK's financial services sector has become less dependant on it over time. The juicier fruit is in the rest of the world. There's quite a lot of real trade between the EU…

"Remember that the EU is becoming less and less important over time as a financial services market, even the UK's financial services sector has become less dependant on it over time."

Ah, no?

"The juicier fruit is in the rest of the world." The world is limited.

a) USA. Very little taxes in trade with the EU already. Little to gain with FTA.

b) Canada? Okay, but the UK has this Free trade agreement (FTA) already via the EU.

c) Mersocur? FTA to be signed with the EU soon. Maybe Chile or Colombia could be a play.

d) Japan und Korea? Have FTAs with EU

e) India? Very demanding. Also want easier immigration to the UK in a FTA. Prediction: Will fail.

f) Australia? Ok, easy to get. Point for the UK

g) China? Possible. But only goods, since China loves to export goods. Financial services? Forget about it. Also, trust me, the Chinese have not forgotten the Opium war. Also the recent Ship of the Royal Navy in disputed waters did not help.

h) Africa. Many (economically) small countries. Not all countries have ties to the UK.

i) Russia/CIS. This the UK could get but this they don't want.

They earth is limited. They are leaving the biggest market in the world in hopes of greener pastures. Good luck!

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#816

Post by benj111 »

TheGrumpyBrit wrote: post #773
justaguyhere wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election - voters need to take at least some responsibility. No amount of "voters' remorse" is going to help now.

The thing is, there was no talk of a deal before the referendum. The vote was simply Stay or Go, with the assumption being that we would simply fall back to WTO rules. All this talk of negotiating a deal came after the vote. In that sense, a No Deal Brexit is closer to what the people voted for than any deal. Contrary to "voters remorse", I know plenty of Brexit supporters who are celebrating the defeat of what they…

There was no talk of falling back to WTO rules.

There was talk of 'hard' and 'soft' Brexits.

Mainly there was talk of how we could stay in the single market, and maintain all the good things about EU membership without having to pay any of the costs.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#817

Post by _nalply »

nraynaud wrote: post #756
justaguyhere wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election - voters need to take at least some responsibility. No amount of "voters' remorse" is going to help now.

This is not the voter’s fault. In a functioning democracy, there is a system to approve a text by popular vote instead of the usual parlement. So the question at such a vote should always be: “do you approve the proposed text?”, then the text becomes law. By organizing an abstract opinion poll, the government just prepared a shit show, there no way to make any significant chunk of the population happy, everybody had…

That's what Switzerland does.

Just today I voted about an energy act, a police act and a residence planning act. I admit that I didn't study the law texts carefully. Instead I read the neutral explanation of the government and both explanations of the pro and contra committees and decided whether the reasonings convinced me or not.

So even in Switzerland you could get the proverbial shit show if someone managed to convince the people with misleading arguments, and I am afraid this already happened a few times.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#818

Post by rcxdude »

thefounder wrote: post #282
mrec wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Donald Tusk has repeatedly offered "Canada +++" to Great Britain. (Not to the United Kingdom, as part of their "we're going to annex Northern Ireland as a punishment beating" approach.) > UK still needs to respect the EU regulations WHEN EXPORTING TO THE EU, yes. The ~90% of UK businesses that don't do any trade with the EU do not. Those trading with the rest of the world outside the EU - a majority of the UK's trade…

What makes the UK follow EU regulation when they export outside of EU?

Most industries which have any significant exports will aim to have their products comply with all requirements in all markets they are exporting to. Generally there is less to be gained by setting up seperate production for each market, even if some of them have more lax requirements, than there is by having one system which can address all markets (this breaks down if there are mutually exclusive requirements, which can cause a lot of pain).

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#819

Post by jinglebells »

mikekchar wrote: post #525
gonehome wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe? If you think that most of the people are actually looking at or arguing about the implementation of any specific policy (I'd suspect this is the minority). It seems more likely people are just arguing about which tribe they're a part of. In that case nobody cares about what the best outcome is or what the truth is. If you can get a brexit deal passed that still allows the UK to 'brexit' in name only, but other…

I don't think what you are saying is correct. Rhetoric aside, I think there are 2 main reasons for leaving: 1. greater autonomy in deciding on laws (especially wrt things like immigration policy), 2. withdrawal of the financial contribution to Europe. Many "remain" people specifically oppose these 2 reasons. They want the European oversight on laws. One of the main reasons for a European Union is to ensure that these…

> 1. greater autonomy in deciding on laws (especially wrt things like immigration policy)

Which turned out to have been possible all along, Theresa May simply didn't implement the EU rules which have already existed when she was home secretary. Immigration can never be solved by leaving the EU because it was already solved.

> They want the European oversight on laws.

If the last two years have shown us, the UK doesn't have the technical ability to run itself, the government can't even organise leaving let alone the mammoth task of re-implementing the 500-odd trade deals they will lose.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#820

Post by Vinnl »

Faark wrote: post #792
Vinnl wrote: post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's likely such a referendum will have two questions: Do you wish to leave or remain?; and, in the event of a vote towards leave, would you accept the backstop or would you prefer "No Deal" That's interesting, as it also could have had one question, with three possible answers: What option do you prefer: Leave, No Deal Brexit, May's Deal Brexit? I can very well imagine the presentation of these questions influenci…

At that point you're basically discussion voting systems. Using first-past-the-post with three options, two of them being breixt, would heavily rig the vote towards remain. Improving voting systems would be great (especially looking at the US, if you ever want more than two real parties), but doing it on the back of such an important decision would be problematic at best. Here is a cutesy video for those new to FPTP…

True, I guess - voting systems in general is a topic that interests me. For the sake of not going too far off-topic, let's leave it at that :)
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