LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police • Hacker News Board

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#811

Post by tomatocracy » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 10:42 PM UTC

isostatic wrote: post #706

vidarh wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This to me seems to be the big difference between US policing and what we're used to in e.g. most European countries: A focus on quick resolution at all cost rather than peaceful resolution. UK police for example tends to respond with overwhelming force, clear the area if possible, and contain their potential adversary, and if possible often wait the situation out. They will use violence if they have to, but it ends…

"n unarmed man was shot because police worried he might be a terrorist a few years back" That was 2005, 3 weeks after a successful terrorist attack on the tube, and 1 day after an unsuccessful one. It was news for weeks and resulted in a criminal prosecution for the head of the police force involved.

The prosecution was not of the head of the force as an individual but of the office of the head of the force (effectively equivalent to the force itself being prosecuted - a legal quirk due to the way the force is legally constituted). And it was for breaching the Health and Safety at Work Act, and resulted in a tiny (comparatively speaking) fine. This was viewed by many as a whitewash.

More broadly, the whole episode made them look incredibly incompetent, callous and uncaring. No action was taken against the officers who were clearly culpable through their abject incompetence (for example, if he was a potential suicide bomber, why wasn't he stopped before he got on a train?). Furthermore, the force took far too long to apologise and admit errors publicly. And they never adequately explained the tactics that led to an innocent man being shot without warning.

This is very similar in character to the issues which plague policing in the USA and has served to sow a great deal of distrust of the police here. Witness the "London riots" in 2011, for example.

And that's also set against a background where they have been publicly found to be "institutionally racist". Subsequently to the de Menezes incident, armed police also "accidentally" shot an unarmed suspect in the shoulder while running upstairs in a house in the Forest Gate raid (which again, just makes them look like amateurs).

And so on.

So our police are very far from perfect - it's just that being better than some of the worst excesses seen in the liberal world is not a hard standard to meet.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#812

Post by learc83 » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 10:43 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #798

learc83 wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NCIS is a federal investigative and intelligence service--much like MI5, which leads us to Spooks that also has quite a bit of guns and rule breaking.

NCIS? Don't assume anything based on that show; it is a ridiculous farce of nonsense and made-up bullshit. I have family members who watch it religiously, in all its goofy flavors. Not a minute passes without the seemingly serious portrayal of something that would never happen.

Of course it's ridiculous. Who said otherwise?

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#813

Post by aswanson » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 11:31 PM UTC

brucephillips wrote: post #777

aswanson wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course I can imagine one. The point is, the law is written such that any statement by the cop stating fear has to be interpreted as truth. Hence non convictions on a body armored cop, with 4 backing officers shooting 5 ak rounds in a prone crying man's unarmed back after a stupid game of Simon says.

This is what you said "Precisely why the "feared for my life" defense of police execution has to be ended." Which is a clear argument for removing officers right to defend themselves when they fear for their life, reasonably or unreasonably. You're moving the goal posts.

I think you're reading my intentions in bad faith. Of course police should be able to defend themselves when warranted. The law and training of the police has been shown to exhibit too broad a defintion of when warranted, at the expense of the citizen, because it is based on the subjective, ambiguous definition of fear.

This is my last clarification of what I meant as I find this conversation is a waste of time, because you are being pedantic rather than dealing with the spirit of the argument. If you follow the Roman Calendar, Happy New Years, in advance. Cheers.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#814

Post by mcguire » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 12:21 AM UTC

goblins wrote: post #709

fatbird wrote: post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More police are killed in traffic accidents than in violent confrontations. When you factor out traffic accidents in police deaths, being a cop is actually one of the safer jobs in North America. All your bullshit about putting your life on the line is just psyching yourself up to shoot people. Cops don't put their life on the line. They sometimes get killed by people for no reason, but in smaller numbers than civili…

>More police are killed in traffic accidents than in violent confrontations. When you factor out traffic accidents in police deaths, being a cop is actually one of the safer jobs in North America. Love to see the stats on that. Either way you wouldn't get me doing a cops job in America without a gun, for obvious reasons. >All your bullshit about putting your life on the line is just psyching yourself up to shoot peop…

On one hand, surprisingly, apparently traffic is less dangerous for police than violence. (https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/police-officers-2014.htm)

On the other hand, law enforcement is less dangerous than agriculture, transportation, or "grounds maintenance" (!) (https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.t03.htm)

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#815

Post by jsjohnst » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 12:40 AM UTC

glenneroo wrote: post #753

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shoot pretty much any direction in a busy city, and hit somebody. He was a loose cannon, aiming a deadly weapon irresponsibly. It can be argued, he had to be taken down. Cruel, but when people put themselves in that position something has to be done, and quickly. Not clear why a sleeping dart couldn't have been used though. Animal control does a pretty good job in such situations.

I should have mentioned, the police cordoned off the entire block with tape and there were armed police on every street. The police were also yelling through the megaphone. Nobody was on the street and nobody was leaving their houses in that climate. The parking lot was 99% empty. As mentioned, he shot the ground directly in front of himself. Once. And as mentioned elsewhere here, German police would in that case sho…

> Someone gave the kill order and a lot of shots were fired.

I honestly don’t believe anyone gave a kill order, I rather feel (maybe not fairly) that police had guns trained on him and heard gun fire and instinctively pulled without even taking a second to analyze situation. If I’m right (good video footage could help prove the theory), this should scare everyone (but likely won’t).

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#816

Post by anonoholic » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 12:55 AM UTC

wjossey wrote: post #759

anonoholic wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So sorry to hear your story. As an alcoholic though (currently 1.5 bottles of wine down, and wishing I had another to hand), I find it hard to reconcile your situation. Your wife was drunk, you were not, but both lost control? Not judging, just asking. The reason I ask is that only situation in which my alcohol abuse has triggered any kind of verbal exchange is where (unaware of my situation) my partner has been snap…

I read your comment, kept going with my morning, but then felt compelled to come back. You might not see this given it’s a throw away, but I hope you do. As someone who has lost family members to alcohol (both figuratively while they were living, and now literally as they have passed away), I’m always prone to respond to opening sentences like yours with “today is a great day to get sober.” There is a meeting near wh…

Thanks for taking the time to come back and respond. I'm going to try to get it under control for the new year. I'll check out that Dr Drew link.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#817

Post by jack9 » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 3:04 AM UTC

computerex wrote: post #774

jack9 wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yea this answer is total and utter crap. We aren't asking law enforcement to be super human, we want them to be educated and competent. That wasn't an answer and it is well reasoned. Saying "nuh uh" as a red herring to put forth what excuses you believe, frankly, is not compelling.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make, but what you quoted wasn't my answer in its entirety. The parent made the assertion that we are asking police officers to be super human and I was disagreeing with that and the rest of the answer goes on to explain why.

The why amounts to you knowing a special incantation that nobody in the US has otherwise stumbled upon. The assertion remains less compelling than the rational explanation that I first heard in the 80s (the context of that is important). Computerx didnt just originate that thought, further demonstrating your lack of knowledge.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#818

Post by IgorPartola » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 3:36 AM UTC

barsonme wrote: post #534

IgorPartola wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, I want to send my kids to school and be reasonably sure that some idiot can’t go down the street, buy a couple of rifles, and murder them and their classmates. Being able to go to the gun range once in a while and post on /r/guns is sorta secondary to that. Different priorities I guess. Edit: and funnily enough the above scenario doesn’t happen in the developed world, except in the US, where it happens multiple…

> See, I want to send my kids to school and be reasonably sure that some idiot can’t go down the street, buy a couple of rifles, and murder them and their classmates. Everybody does. Let's not be disingenuous, though: the chances one of our children dies from a gunshot wound at school is incredibly small. By my counts, 4 students have been killed at school shootings this year. 4 students out of ~50 million kids at ov…

I lived next door to Sandy Hook when it happened. A relative of mine was a student in their school system and for a while I didn’t know if she was alive or dead. My town and towns around it have events every year honoring each person that died in the shooting. Yeah it’s a little close to home both figuratively and literally.

And I never said anything about not caring about other gun deaths. I don’t have a magical scale to weigh lives, and say which gun deaths are more meaningful objectively, but my solution to most of these is exactly the same: repeal the second amendment. Don’t let suicidal middle aged men buy guns. Don’t let legally owned guns become illegally owned guns. Don’t pawn them, privately sell them, hide them, find them, etc. Don’t put them in the hands of 12 year olds, or 50 year olds. What does seem true to me is that you almost never see a story where the gun made a difference and a life was saved. The NRA loooooves to talk about self defense the reason to sacrifice the poor, the defenseless, and the sick every damn year. Yet there is no damn evidence for this.

Also yes sure you can say schools are “safe” because it might not happen at yours. Add churches, malls, movie theaters, concerts, etc. and the picture gets a lot bleaker.

This experiment with guns has clearly failed. Arming a bunch of civilians and glorifying gun culture to the point of fetishism turns out leads to a not insignificant amount of death, a good chunk of which is innocent bystanders. So we can spend another year or ten or 100 pretending that this is a good idea or we can repeal the second amendment and start over. I am willing to bet that mayhem and pandemonium won’t happen and instead we would learn that not having a bunch of people armed to the teeth is a good idea.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#819

Post by blattimwind » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 3:38 AM UTC

jsjohnst wrote: post #815

glenneroo wrote: post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should have mentioned, the police cordoned off the entire block with tape and there were armed police on every street. The police were also yelling through the megaphone. Nobody was on the street and nobody was leaving their houses in that climate. The parking lot was 99% empty. As mentioned, he shot the ground directly in front of himself. Once. And as mentioned elsewhere here, German police would in that case sho…

> Someone gave the kill order and a lot of shots were fired. I honestly don’t believe anyone gave a kill order, I rather feel (maybe not fairly) that police had guns trained on him and heard gun fire and instinctively pulled without even taking a second to analyze situation. If I’m right (good video footage could help prove the theory), this should scare everyone (but likely won’t).

So if someone throws a firecracker near an active US police situation all the officers are just going to open fire on whatever is in front of their gun barrels?

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#820

Post by wjossey » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 8:12 AM UTC

anonoholic wrote: post #816

wjossey wrote: post #759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read your comment, kept going with my morning, but then felt compelled to come back. You might not see this given it’s a throw away, but I hope you do. As someone who has lost family members to alcohol (both figuratively while they were living, and now literally as they have passed away), I’m always prone to respond to opening sentences like yours with “today is a great day to get sober.” There is a meeting near wh…

Thanks for taking the time to come back and respond. I'm going to try to get it under control for the new year. I'll check out that Dr Drew link.

My email is also in my profile. Here if you want to talk. Please don’t hesitate to reach out.