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UK votes to leave EU

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK votes to leave EU

#811

Post by tonyedgecombe »

Zpalmtree wrote: post #278
lettergram wrote: post #51

I still have severe doubts this will happen. It will take many years to renegotiate and most treaties will be in effect until then. My guess is very little changes, it's more of a sign that people want their country sovereign as opposed to being ruled by a committee in another country.

If we don't leave the EU, it will completely destroy the conservative party. Very unlikely that they will risk their jobs. If they do, chances are a eurosceptic party would get elected in 2020 if a general election isn't called before.

If we enter a recession the Tory party will loose the next election.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#812

Post by emptyfile »

dangjc wrote: post #602
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

Freedom of movement is an ideal to aspire to, but maybe the reality we live in now is that immigration needs to be managed to maintain social cohesion. People need time to stop thinking of themselves as British or German first but rather European. Eastern European countries need time to develop. The Eurozone needs time to stabilize. Eventually I think the EU will get there, but maybe for now, the survival of the Euro…

The reality is that free movement of people is the core value, principle and the foundation of the EU as we know it.

If Britain has a problem with it, then goodbye Britain, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#813

Post by JPKab »

notacoward wrote: post #766

That's a very strange, and in some cases inaccurate, portrayal of history. * The British were not an external enemy. That would have been the French. For the most part, even the people leading the revolution were proud of being British subjects and would have liked to remain so, but could no longer tolerate the conditions being attached to that status. Our enemy was recognized to be our own cousins, not some external…

THIS: 100% this.

"* Shared culture, language, religion? Language, mostly. The Puritans in New England didn't really have much to say to the Quakers in Philadelphia, and both had even less in common with the not-particularly-religious folks down in Virginia. Yes, I guess they all were (or at least professed to be) Christians, but that's not too different than Europe today."

Let me expound upon this further:

The Puritans (not the Pilgrims, who they ended up forcibly annexing into their much larger colony) were by and large the "Roundheads" who won the English Civil War. Ethnically, they were non-gentry, descended from the Anglo-Saxons who lost to the 1066 invasion forces of the Normans.

In Virginia, the settlers were the younger sons of the English gentry, losers of the English Civil War, with lots of titles (if not tons of blood) descending from the Normans. They brought huge swathes of indentured servants with them (the bulk of the white population of Virginia was descended from indentures). They sought to recreate the English countryside in a strictly feudal sense.

In the Deep South, (South Carolina, Georgia, etc) the settlers were descended from the wealthy sugar planters on Barbados. They ran out of land for their sons on Barbados, and the sons came to the Deep South with tons of slaves and a specific goal of recreating the despotic Barbados chattel slavery system and it's huge profits.

Each of these colonies had strict rules on who could enter, and from where.

Pennsylvania was a different story. Founded by Quakers, they pretty much let anybody in, which leads to the Ulster-Scots aka Scots-Irish. Literally hundreds of thousands of Scots who were booted out of northern Ireland or fled the poverty of the Scotland/England borderlands came into Pennsylvania, and immediately went west into the Appalachian mountains, from there spreading themselves and their culture south into western Virginia, western North Carolina, Tennessee, and anywhere else in the US where you picture a rugged landscape that couldn't support plantations. (the places in the US South with rich soil and flat lands were taken over by the slave owners, but the Ulster Scots descendants took all the land that the plantation owners couldn't use, which is why northwest Arkansas is completely different than the rest of the state, or why western North Carolina and western Virginia were filled with Unionist supporters in the US Civil War.

All of these groups HATED each other, and there are still lots of tensions. The Ulster Scots (Appalachian folks) literally fought a rebellion against the US in the early days of the republic due to a financial scam run by Alexander Hamilton and his cronies that is like something out of 1980's Wall Street. (He first colluded with the governor of Pennsylvania to disallow veterans from paying their taxes with IOUs from the US government for war wages, rendering the IOUs worthless, then he and his speculator buddies bought the IOUs for pennies on the dollar. Immediately afterwards, he enacted the US government's plan for buying the IOUs at face value plus interest in hard currency, making his buddies rich. Following this, he leavied a tax on whiskey, which was a valuable medium of exchange in the frontier.)

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#814

Post by Wintamute »

pavlov wrote: post #378

I'm a Finn, and always thought that UK could be an interesting place to live some day. This decision completely destroys that possibility because moving to a non-EU country is not a realistic option -- I wouldn't go out of my way to look for bureaucratic headaches. Since the UK doesn't want people like me, I guess it will increasingly become another place I never think about. This was a major win for isolationism, bu…

According to the Brexit politicians they don't want isolationism, rather they want to open up the UK to the rest of the world. At the moment they have to privilege economic immigrants from the EU, and make it harder for high skilled workers to come to the country from the rest of the world. There will be a powerful political mandate to institute an Australian style points-based immigration policy ... this can be fine-tuned year on year to bring in the skills the UK needs, rather than an open door to the EU and barriers to everyone else. If you're a high skilled Norwegian worker you may find it easier to come and work and settle in the UK post Brexit than before. I don't think there's any question that the UK will continue with a high level of immigration.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#815

Post by Khaine »

_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

But the difference is the US is a political union and the EU is not. In fact truthfully the EU is flawed as the 'freedom of movement' implies political union, which it is not. And this is what has lead to brexit.

The euro is flawed[1] for similar reasons. The economies of southern Europe are too different and its impossible to adjust as the flow of labour is limited due to cultural and language difficulties.

[1] http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/revenge-of-the-o...

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#816

Post by Annatar »

The English, even to this present day, are not known for being benevolent masters... but they are known for being violent ones, who will stop at nothing to satisfy their short term interests. How many nations have the English downtrodden? How many do they still try to intimidate, bluff, or put pressure on, even as ordinary citizens in management positions?

Of small comfort then, is the fact that the English have abolished slavery in 1833.

To put it poetically, with one hand I embrace you, with another I stick my blade into your throat, while my boot tramples on your broken body, that's the portrayal one might construct from history and contemporary actions and thinking of the English.

And "the commonwealth", oh my! Australia was a penal colony, of, you guessed it, the English. Not the Scottish, not the Welsh, not the Irish (Irish were busy being downtrodden, Scottish were busy massively emigrating because they were poor, while London threw galant parties, and the Welsh were trying to muster every bit of strength and intellect they could, so as not to be assimilated), and New Zealand... oh yes, in "the commonwealth", but not before the English killed a good number of Maori, isn't it?

And then, we didn't even touch upon the mess that the English caused in India, or in Africa (Zulus really "got theirs" from the English, didn't they?), or the mess on the Bosphorus, or the "Arabian question of Palestine", the consequences of which the world is still suffering from today, with all the strife going on in Palestine... ah yes, our English, everybody else in Europe drives on the right, except in Anglo-Saxon lands, where it's of course the opposite... everybody else is on the metric system because it's practical, except for the English, who still scoff at that non-Imperial nonsense from Bruxelles, our "special Petunias", with their "traditions", who view the rest of EU citizens as immigrants... with such friends, who needs enemies?

As sad as I am that the English have decided to ruin it once again for everybody, I say: if the English think the standards shouldn't apply to them, if they think that they are special, well good riddance, and stay out of EU.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#817

Post by gpvos »

return0 wrote: post #748
banach wrote: post #681

On the contrary, historical perspective is essential in understanding the issues that the EU is going through currently. If the German leadership took a good look in the mirror, it would see that it is subjecting Greece to a replica of the Treaty of Versaille and, as a result, should expect similar consequences. The PR outfall of that debacle is probably what pushed the Brits to vote for exit.

The greeks can choose to leave the eurozone (I am an greek an in favor of that myself). This shouldnt affect our position in the EU, it benefits us greatly and has guaranteed a relative stability for a long time. The UK is our #1 source of tourism (that contributes 2.7% of our GDP) - it's sad that brexit is making it harder for them to visit.

As far as I know, the rules are such that no country can leave the euro of their own volition without also leaving the EU. Possibly, the other countries can expel a country from the euro. Then again, everything is political in the EU, so a lot is possible.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#819

Post by Keyframe »

beninvalencia wrote: post #122

As other comments have noted, the point is that the EU will not want to give the UK a good deal on leaving, because the EU does not want to give any encouragement to the other countries which want to leave the EU (some of which want to leave more strongly than the UK do - apparently). Secondly, why would the UK end up with a Norway or Switzerland deal, when the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world? This is unpr…

UK to EU exports 45% of all exports. EU to UK 6%. EU will be just fine. It's not as if import/exports will cease to be either. UK will be hurt, EU not so very much.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#820

Post by tonyedgecombe »

cm2187 wrote: post #456

To those who think the UK will be hurt more than the EU, I find it interesting that the FTSE (-8.4%) is down less than the DAX (-9.5%) http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/stocks Obviously if you compound that with the pound losing 10% a FTSE investor is worse off. But my boss has met many investors recently and his feedback was that more investors were concerned for the future of the EU rather than the future of the UK.

The FTSE 100 is mostly companies trading globally, often just being listed in the UK.

The FTSE 250 is probably more representative of UK business as a whole and that is down more today.

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