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IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

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Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#801

Post by komali2 »

_HMCB_ wrote: post #743

The downtrodden have become the oppressor.

I think about this a lot re: Israel. I had a conversation once with an Israeli where he was convinced "everyone is racist," but we're all too woke to admit it or something, or have some belief that racism is wrong but work to overcome this inherent thing.

His arguments were all very zero sum, "if we didn't do it to them they'd do it to us," and from conversations with friends I'm thinking that what's happening here is the Israeli media apparatus focuses heavily on creating an "us vs them" mentality for diaspora Jewish people, which has now backfired to create a whole lot of Islamophobic and racist people.

It's interesting because one may think that people with a historical trauma of one of the worst things ever carried out in human history would be the least likely to do something like that and the most likely to see the writing on the wall if something like that was about to happen again, but sadly that was too optimistic: the opposite happened.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#802

Post by bawolff »

kennywinker wrote: post #787
bawolff wrote: post #754

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he's saying that this is par for the course for asymmetric conflicts with deeply rooted insurgent groups. So if you are going to say the handling of this conflict has more to do with Israeli training/mindset/etc and is not related to the type of conflict, do you have other armies in mind that have fought similar conflicts and done better?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_... > the single deadliest conflict for journalists in all known conflicts in the history of the world, according to the Costs of War Project Does that sound like “par for the course”? By that measure, every other army in every other war prior has done better. This “war” (genocide) is not normal.

This list seems to include people who were journalists but weren't killed while acting in the capacity of a journalist (as far as i can tell). If this is how you define journalist then world war 2 was certainly much much deadlier for journalists. To put it bluntly, i have my doubts that its making an apples to apples comparison with other conflicts.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#804

Post by etiennebausson »

xdennis wrote: post #655
abdelhousni wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot eighty years of occupation, cultural , economical and ethnical cleansing of the local indigenous people called Palestinians with help of US and Western countries mainly.

Arabs are not indigenous to Palestine. Palestine was Roman when it was colonized by the Arabs. Before Palestine, Judea was a Jewish state which was colonized by the Romans.

They are the same people, they just converted to another religion since the diaspora that saw some of the population leave 2000 years ago.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#805

Post by avh02 »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #560
an0malous wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget the “all they have to do is return the hostages” line

> Don’t forget the “all they have to do is return the hostages” line So there's zero link whatsoever between Hamas executing 1200 civilians on Oct 7th, taking 200 hostages, and the following war (and war crimes) of Israel? Israel literally unilaterally began a war and committed war crimes without any act of aggression? And from the moment 200 hostages had been taken, many of whom died in captivity, everything was car…

Cool, now justify the things happening in the west bank. Israel so peaceful, coexists with neighbors.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#806

Post by jwarden »

dathinab wrote: post #562
glenstein wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I understand the mass downvotes on this one. I didn't take it as endorsing the action but summarizing the rationale.

many somewhat intellectual(1), but evil(2), people love to play make pretend of just "summarizing the rational", "playing devil advocate", "just pointing out facts" to endorse their word view while having "plausible deniability" if caught (as they tend to know many people think their ideas are evil). Idk. if this is happening here but given how some threads devolved and other patterns common for such people emerged (…

I think we should avoid suggesting that other people on this forum are evil, even if you think their ideas and arguments are harmful.

I think sometimes people are so certain about their beliefs that they perceive any argument that challenges them to be evil, bad faith trickery. But I think the best way to respond to these arguments is simply to give compelling reasons why they are wrong (and not why the person giving them is bad).

Otherwise, some people will be mislead by these bad arguments and you will have done nothing to help but say “don’t listen to him he’s evil”, which is not very convincing really.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#807

Post by raducu »

dijit wrote: post #794
raducu wrote: post #788

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All other things being equal, if your opponent engages actively in hiding among medical and press workers as a type of guerrilla warfare, then the reality does become this. So let me check this reasoning: if there was a single US soldier in the WTC towers, the 9/11 attacks were justified because the soldiers were hiding among the civilians? Or if Hamas killed a single israelian soldier in their horrendous attacks i…

You've collapsed two meaningfully different things into one: 'soldiers exist near civilians' and 'soldiers deliberately operate from within protected populations as a systematic tactic.' Your three examples all illustrate the first. I was describing the second. These are not the same argument, and treating them as equivalent doesn't advance the discussion.

I have conflated those two, but my main point is the monstrous, one-sided destruction Israel has caused in Gaza is a clear proof Israel has gone way, way, way into the genocide territory and not just into the "hamas fighters were hiding among the civilians and after considering the international laws for such cases SOME civilians were killed".

Israel demonstrated complete disregard for human life for the sake of expediency to say in a gentle way, but in a harsher way, you could say the aftermath and details that are emerging point to malicious collective punishment.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#808

Post by JumpCrisscross »

moxifly7 wrote: post #755
throwaway3060 wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with many parts of this narrative, but even this fundamental hypothesis that Israel will just give up without Western support, that there is absolute leverage, I have no idea where it comes from or what evidence suggests this. If Israel feels they need to do this, they will just source supplies from somewhere else. And everyone will be worse off for it.

A Cuba style embargo on Israel until they stop the genocide and ethnic cleansing of an indigenous population would be the end of the current direction of the Israeli establishment. Look at the size of the country, the natural resources and where they are positioned. They are dependent on Western imports for pretty much everything, and only export technology that Europe and the US can easily replace with domestic or o…

> Cuba style embargo on Israel until they stop the genocide and ethnic cleansing of an indigenous population would be the end of the current direction of the Israeli establishment

Doubtful. You’d just get another Iran. Israel is rich and a weapons buyer and exporter. That gives it many friends of opportunity, from Russia to India.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#809

Post by dijit »

raducu wrote: post #807
dijit wrote: post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've collapsed two meaningfully different things into one: 'soldiers exist near civilians' and 'soldiers deliberately operate from within protected populations as a systematic tactic.' Your three examples all illustrate the first. I was describing the second. These are not the same argument, and treating them as equivalent doesn't advance the discussion.

I have conflated those two, but my main point is the monstrous, one-sided destruction Israel has caused in Gaza is a clear proof Israel has gone way, way, way into the genocide territory and not just into the "hamas fighters were hiding among the civilians and after considering the international laws for such cases SOME civilians were killed". Israel demonstrated complete disregard for human life for the sake of expe…

The scale of the destruction doesn't retroactively validate the tactics that made it more likely. 'It got very bad' is not a justification for abandoning the framework that might have contained it.

If anything it's an argument against it.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#810

Post by igravious »

YZF wrote: post #667
Qem wrote: post #2

Full report: https://content.forensic-architecture.org/wp-content/uploads...

[flagged]

The reason your comments are being flagged is because you are defending the patently indefensible.

Do you currently serve or have you over the last two-and-a-half-years served in the IDF (or one of its supporting directorates) or do you currently work or have you over the last two-and-a-half-years worked in one of the Israeli intelligence agencies?

I ask this because you admit to having used thermal night vision equipment, you know what is being discussed in Hebrew-language Israeli media; and you call your interlocutors armchair critics implying you do more than just sit in an armchair. In the interests of full disclosure -- are you a neutral third-party or do you have skin in the game?

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