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In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

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Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#801

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know about it, affected components were replaced. They still built it relatively on time and on budget "On 7 February 2014, the Nuclear Safety and Security Commission declared that its investigation since mid-2013, they found eight cases out of 2,075 samples of foreign manufactured reactor components that were supplied with fake documents."

Hopefully all little tricks are now known... > relatively on time and on budget Nope. 7 years late (plan: 2017, last reactor diverged in 2024). Total cost not known, at least 24.5 billion USD and maybe up to 32 according to Bloomberg (plan: 20). Koreans are even fighting: KHNP (a subsidiary of KEPCO, the company building the plant) officially seeks for about 1.2 billion USD in compensation ( https://www.businesskorea…

8bn/unit is successful considering fla3 was 23bn. 8y/unit is successful, several in parallel with 1y distance, considering fla3/vogtle took about 20y.

Yes. It is a success.

Korea also announced they plan to build two additional reactors domestically by 2038

I've seen what a success Energiewende was. Really top notch execution to spend more than the entire french fleet and after 25y to have much worse emissions, while planning to have 80GW gas firming per Fraunhofer ISE to cover under generation periods

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

renewables are still made from different substances, one of which is copper. One byproduct of copper is extremely toxic- arsenic, and it's spills are not that different in terms of dangers. That's the point. For nuclear at least, over time decay happens, esp for most dangerous isotopes, but for chemical waste - it's forever. Nuclear still has higher capacity factor than any VRE. Evacuation numbers for Fukushima are a…

Arsenic: this only plays during mining (recycling is OK), and efficient measures are already in place (where and when was it a problem, and at which extent?) > capacity factor So what? Capacity factor (or another similar quantity such as physical efficiency, operating life, etc.) is a salient criterion in the case of equipment consuming materials or fuel without recycling them, or producing waste in quantity or in th…

There are some very recent arsenic spills events in copper mines...

Nuclear fuel can be recycled, just like renewables. It's mostly not done because it's cheaper not to, just like in renewables

The danger was known based on multiple data points. Japanese govt ignored them. And they acknowledged evacuation was not necessary in the way it was implemented

Capacity factor is important to understand how much firming you need

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#803

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Mostly because of inland ban. Costwise their nuclear is extremely cheap, probably even cheaper than ren, but it's harder to scale (or unwillingness). But per capita they don't even match french deployments during messmer or swedish bwr units during peak

Isn't the inland ban due to water scarcity? I thought the plan was to deploy Gen IV helium cooled reactors which don't need that amount of water.

No. They are afraid to pollute downstream. Nuclear doesn't require that much water. Worstcase you can even deploy dry cooling or wastewater like palo verde

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully all little tricks are now known... > relatively on time and on budget Nope. 7 years late (plan: 2017, last reactor diverged in 2024). Total cost not known, at least 24.5 billion USD and maybe up to 32 according to Bloomberg (plan: 20). Koreans are even fighting: KHNP (a subsidiary of KEPCO, the company building the plant) officially seeks for about 1.2 billion USD in compensation ( https://www.businesskorea…

8bn/unit is successful considering fla3 was 23bn. 8y/unit is successful, several in parallel with 1y distance, considering fla3/vogtle took about 20y. Yes. It is a success. Korea also announced they plan to build two additional reactors domestically by 2038 I've seen what a success Energiewende was. Really top notch execution to spend more than the entire french fleet and after 25y to have much worse emissions, while…

> 8bn/unit is successful considering that FL3 was 23bn.

Yes, a failure is better than a disaster. As we say in France, "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."

> Korea also announced their plan.

For 25 years, numerous announcements of this kind have been made by many nations, without any real intention of following through, and for various reasons (electoral considerations, will to create competition for renewable energy suppliers, etc.).

Only projects that are actually starting (on the ground) provide a good indication.

> Energiewende > spends more than the entire French fleet

The actual cost of this fleet is considerably higher than official estimates. Details and sources in French: https://sites.google.com/view/electricitedefrance/accueil#h....

> after 25 years to have much worse emissions

This comparison is invalid, for many reasons.

On the one hand, France's transition to nuclear power began with the first industrial nuclear power reactor (dubbed "EDF1") in 1957. In 1959, the project for the power plant that would be completed in Chooz in 1967 began, and as early as 1964, nuclear power was presented to the public as the energy source that would take over in 1975 (correctly predicting that in Europe it would produce 25% of electricity 20 years later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6Xfu8u3Yqw).

As early as 1972, two years before the launch of the Messmer Plan, nuclear power in France produced 15 TWh, or about 11% of its electricity: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-primary-energy-fos...

Then the Messmer Plan, considerably accelerating this nuclearization, started in 1974 and was completed in 1999 (Civaux-2 reactor): https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Chrono-parc-nucleaire-...

This nuclearization lasted approximately 40 years.

Furthermore, nuclear power did not replace a huge set of existing electricity-producing sector, such as coal in Germany, because in 1970 France produced about four times less electricity than at the end of its nuclear power deployment: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-production-by...

Moreover, this was a very prosperous period, as France fully benefited from the "Thirty Glorious Years": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trente_Glorieuses

Other major differences exist.

In short: comparing France's nuclearization with the Energiewende is extremely difficult, and a direct comparison absurd.

> planning to have 80GW of gas-fired power plants

In early 2026, Germany announced it would deploy new gas-fired power plants. The impact depends on the corresponding emissions. If they are only all active for a few hours a year to get through critical periods and (as planned) replace coal or primarily burn green hydrogen, for example, then it will be progress (reducing emissions). The best-case scenario is a full renewable fleet but Rome wasn't built...

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#805

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arsenic: this only plays during mining (recycling is OK), and efficient measures are already in place (where and when was it a problem, and at which extent?) > capacity factor So what? Capacity factor (or another similar quantity such as physical efficiency, operating life, etc.) is a salient criterion in the case of equipment consuming materials or fuel without recycling them, or producing waste in quantity or in th…

There are some very recent arsenic spills events in copper mines... Nuclear fuel can be recycled, just like renewables. It's mostly not done because it's cheaper not to, just like in renewables The danger was known based on multiple data points. Japanese govt ignored them. And they acknowledged evacuation was not necessary in the way it was implemented Capacity factor is important to understand how much firming you n…

> There are some very recent arsenic spills

Indeed, but nothing comparable to the spills at Chernobyl or Fukushima.

> Nuclear fuel can be recycled

Only once, and France, an industrial leader in this area, only manages to recycle 10% of its reactor fuel this way.

> It's mostly not done because it's cheaper not to, just like in renewables

No, that's completely false. Closing the fuel cycle was considered the Holy Grail as early as the 1950s, because everyone knew that uranium deposits would greatly limit the expansion of nuclear power. The industrialization of reactors of the most promising architecture (fast neutron-breeders, sodium-cooled) as well as others, attempted at great length and expense in many countries, failed everywhere ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor#Notable_reacto... ), there is no ready-to-deploy model of such reactor, and this approach has been virtually abandoned, replaced by the pursuit of fusion.

> The danger was known based on multiple data points

Before the major nuclear accident at Fukushima, the formulas for calculating seismic risk (the tsunami was triggered by an earthquake) were incorrect because they neglected very old earthquakes. The cause was an inability to properly assess the risk. This inability was not universal, as some (for example, Y. Hirai in the case of the Onagawa nuclear power plant, which was closer to the earthquake's epicenter and withstood the earthquake: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onagawa_Nuclear_Power_Plant#20...) did take the necessary precautions.

> They acknowledged evacuation was not necessary in the way it was implemented.

Arms-chair tacticians are verbose after the fact, but nowhere to be found when the problem was an ongoing challenge and experts described the worst-case scenario. The testimony of the prime minister at the time, referenced above, is perfectly clear.

> Capacity factor is important to understand how much firming you need.

No value is prohibitive, as there are many other pertinent parameters.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#806

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very weak arguments there. Adding distortions is ok because other distortions exist? Non sequitur. Tariffs don't currently do everything therefore they cannot ever solve the problem? Also a non sequitur.

Yeah. Very weak. Just like German economy.

Europe, especially central and eastern away from the coasts, is in the unenviable position of being the renewable energy armpit of the world. So their choice is either not be competitive in energy-intensive industries in a renewable world or continuing to be competitive in a fossil-fuel-doomed world.

This dilemma leads to various kinds of magical thinking, like "nuclear will save us" or "climate change isn't real".

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Very weak. Just like German economy.

Europe, especially central and eastern away from the coasts, is in the unenviable position of being the renewable energy armpit of the world. So their choice is either not be competitive in energy-intensive industries in a renewable world or continuing to be competitive in a fossil-fuel-doomed world. This dilemma leads to various kinds of magical thinking, like "nuclear will save us" or "climate change isn't real".

for nuclear at least we know what final result may look like, in France. We know both costs and timeline to achieve decarbonization. We also know more or less the same about Germany which took a different path, starting from 2000 under red-greens and schroder and continued by cdu. To me it sounds much more magical to hope DE will have anytime soon abundant cheap hydrogen to firm it's 80GW+ of gas plants according to Fraunhofer's ISE plan.

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

8bn/unit is successful considering fla3 was 23bn. 8y/unit is successful, several in parallel with 1y distance, considering fla3/vogtle took about 20y. Yes. It is a success. Korea also announced they plan to build two additional reactors domestically by 2038 I've seen what a success Energiewende was. Really top notch execution to spend more than the entire french fleet and after 25y to have much worse emissions, while…

> 8bn/unit is successful considering that FL3 was 23bn. Yes, a failure is better than a disaster. As we say in France, "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." > Korea also announced their plan. For 25 years, numerous announcements of this kind have been made by many nations, without any real intention of following through, and for various reasons (electoral considerations, will to create competition for…

1- 8bn/unit is pretty acceptable if you adjust for capacity factors and compare to solar projects in say Germany that would on avg deliver same power per year and even better if you want firm power.

2- announcement is recent and made by a somewhat antinuclear PM which changed the course seeing that ren alone are not sufficient. It's in the context when Korea will soon finish 2 units locally. In fact if for some reason govt will change there, plans will probably accelerate

Why should I read a nonsensical antinuclear article by a rando on the internet when there are official numbers from court of auditors? The numbers of french nuclear program are available. And even if you bump them by 50%, it'll still be cheaper than german EEG expenditure alone and the difference only grows

"This nuclearization lasted approximately 40 years." But messmer plan took much less. We are talking about accelerated deployment and spending. France beat Germany in both. Or maybe we should start counting for germany from the moment first solar panel was deployed there instead of Energiewende proposal? It'll make things look even worse. A direct comparison isn't absurd. Numbers are known in both cases and you clearly want to ignore them. Talking about french prosperous period when DE is biggest EU economy is strange too.

To say gas plants will burn hydrogen when merely 25% mix is already worse economically than failed nuclear projects like Vogtle is at least laughable. The announced gas plants dont match the numbers demanded by Fraunhofer, mostly because EU rules dont allow that. So basically germany is stuck in a strange position where it needs firming but it cannot build it.

Again, France spent considerably less and did the job much faster while Germany still struggles while it's best hope is to have some magical cheap hydrogen to replace gas...

Re: In Europe, wind and solar overtake fossil fuels

#809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 8bn/unit is successful considering that FL3 was 23bn. Yes, a failure is better than a disaster. As we say in France, "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." > Korea also announced their plan. For 25 years, numerous announcements of this kind have been made by many nations, without any real intention of following through, and for various reasons (electoral considerations, will to create competition for…

1- 8bn/unit is pretty acceptable if you adjust for capacity factors and compare to solar projects in say Germany that would on avg deliver same power per year and even better if you want firm power. 2- announcement is recent and made by a somewhat antinuclear PM which changed the course seeing that ren alone are not sufficient. It's in the context when Korea will soon finish 2 units locally. In fact if for some reaso…

> capacity factors

Deeming dispatchable power necessary was valid as long as the technical means (long-distance, high-capacity transmission, smart grids, energy storage, network management software capable of reacting quickly enough and optimizing the system, voltage stabilization and current frequency synthesis tools, etc.) that would have allowed for a mostly non-dispatchable way to generate electricity were too expensive, insufficient, or simply nonexistent.

Now these means exist, and experts assert that it is no longer necessary to deploy a large proportion of dispatchable generation capacity. Therefore, from a technical standpoint, an electrical system based on renewables with the largest resources (wind and solar, which are not dispatchable) is feasible: https://cleantechnica.com/2022/07/25/will-renewable-energy-d...

> compare to solar projects

"With the cost of storing electricity at $65/MWh, storing 50% of a day’s solar generation for use during the night-time hours adds $33/MWh to the total cost of solar. The global average price of solar in 2024 was $43/MWh. Turning this cheap daytime electricity into a dispatchable profile that is closer to an actual demand profile, would therefore result in a total electricity cost of $76/MWh." https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/how-cheap-is-batter...

The total cost of nuclear power, even when building and managing waste without exceeding the budget, even without accidents, even without uranium supply problems..., is already much higher than that.

He's dead, Jim.

> 2- announcement > plans will probably accelerate

Indeed, let's see if the current trend will be reversed: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewa...

> Why should I read a nonsensical antinuclear article by a rando on the internet

It is sourced (or you may pinpoint what isn't).

> when there are official numbers from court of auditors?

The referenced article quotes thems!

> even if you bump them by 50%, it'll still be cheaper than german EEG expenditure alone

The cost of the energy transition in Germany is sometimes cited as €300 billion, €500 billion, or even €1.5 trillion.

These figures are worthless because no reputable source publishes a specific figure along with its scope (some aspects of the investments needed for the electricity grid are independent of the energy source) and at least a timeframe.

These figures are actually projections published by various sources, covering distant timeframes (2050, etc.) and encompassing the entire electricity system (including non-renewable energy sources).

We had the same sort of propaganda in France, then EDF (Big Chief of the French nuclear sector) boss stated in public that about 50% of the projected network-related costs are not tied to renewables ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEdQz3hGlf0&t=328s ).

> "This nuclearization lasted approximately 40 years." But messmer plan took much less.

Nope: https://sites.google.com/view/electricitedefrance/messmer-pl...

> Numbers are known in both cases and you clearly want to ignore them.

The afore-referenced articles states and sources facts and data. You don't.

> Talking about french prosperous period when DE is biggest EU economy

'Prosperous' is more-or-less 'density', not extension. This past prosperity (massively benefitting to the Messmer Plan) is an historical indeniable fact ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trente_Glorieuses ).

> gas plants > hydrogen when merely 25% mix is already worse economically than failed nuclear projects like Vogtle

This is not valid as in this context those hydrogen plants are prototypes, while Vogtle (and other recent projects aiming at building nuclear reactors) are theoritically mastered since the 1970's (Messmer Plan...).

> The announced gas plants dont match the numbers demanded by Fraunhofer, mostly because EU rules dont allow that. So basically germany is stuck in a strange position where it needs firming but it cannot build it.

Indeed, and it may imply that more coal will be burnt. This is ridiculous.

> magical cheap hydrogen

This is indeed a bet, but a non-inept one ( https://www.spglobal.com/energy/en/news-research/latest-news... ), especially as the amount of electricity overproduced by renewables, reflected by episodes of low or even negative spot prices, is constantly increasing.

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