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If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

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Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#801
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I'm following your thought on capital gains tax. Capital Gain tax occurs when you sell an asset for more than you paid for it. AI (software) is not an asset, and I'm not sure how you'd sell it. Computers and robots are assets (although they typically depreciate not appreciate.) Either way capital gains tax is applied to the asset not the productivity of the asset . The productivity in turn is taxed as pa…

The ownership of software absolutely is an asset. It’s Intellectual Property. What are you referring to?

> The ownership of software absolutely is an asset

It's a good thing we give the D compiler system away for free! You don't have to be concerned about being taxed on it.

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it. Can you explain in simpler terms? My understanding is that you say that taxing things denominated in a foreign currency is difficult? But why? I already pay taxes on my capital gains denominated in a foreign currency (for example dollars). There are official government exchange rates for tax reasons, published daily. I don't see anything to hand wave here, because there's no problem.

Apologies, in an attempt to be precise I have used convoluted language. The point I'm trying to make is that assets such as land are not denominated in any currency and typically end up being held for such large amounts of time with such substantial transaction costs that's there would be a large cost involved in knowing what the value of the thing being taxed is. If I pay you $100k, £100k or ¥100k we can use spot ra…

Thank you! That makes perfect sense. I admit my financial vocabulary is lacking.

I completely agree you then. I think people arguing for wealth tax severely underestimate how many edge cases and loopholes there are.

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#803

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine. What should that rate be?

Variable, based on the household and the amount of income being taxed.

So make capital gains rates match existing income tax rates?

Seems sensible. I remember when W reduced capital gains rates. I think they used to be closer.

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#804
post #184

No, not the AI. Just the owner of means of production like AI. The fact that capital owners successfully avoid contributing to the financing of our states and social systems is, in my view, one of the fundamental problems of our time.

100% agree! I find quite concerning that this point is not immediate in any conversation about AI or robots impacting the number of jobs, and the subsequent conversation about innovating new taxes. AI and robots are capital as any other automation on a factory, and capital gains should be taxed appropriately. This is not a new thing completely separate from the untouchable status quo wrt existing taxes. If it tickles…

What if I build and manage a dark factory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lights_out_(manufacturing)) and it produces gizmos.

Since all my competitors are also running dark factories, we compete essentially on source materials + energy (assuming we have similar design/quality). Margin would be eventually razor thin. The dark factory does not make much capital gains, even as it produces 1,000 gizmo per second.

The capital gain is not much , but since we have only a handful of employees, that is enough to pay everyone a decent wage, after paying for the factory itself, source materials and energy.

How much tax do we expect to get from this gizmo company ? 10 years ago, to produce the same gizmos, I needed 5,000 employees, the unit price was way higher, and had higher revenue. But since AI and dark factories came, the prices cratered, instead of 5,000 jobs, we only have 5 jobs to produce the same.

Sure the 4,995 unemployed might be able to afford the gizmo, but the state does not receive the same taxes. So what happens to those 4,995 unemployed people ? who is paying for their health benefits and social security (retirement) ?

I am wondering how best to solve that equation ?

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#805
The real problem is that this question starts from what I think is a stupid premise.

If a startup that never had employees uses AI, should be it be taxed differently to a startup that never had employees that doesn't use AI? If so, what is the justification for that? It seems to me it can only be some hypothetical idea that humans might have been able to do some of the work at that company, even if they never have employed people to do that work.

Should a company be taxed more when it reduces employee count for any reason that doesn't involve AI? I'd say not, because otherwise you're forcing companies that are strapped for cash into near or actual bankruptcy instead of being able to downsize.

If a company should be taxed more for reducing employee count while also using AI, but not if they don't, wouldn't you just expect companies to outsource the AI component of the work to other companies?

It seems to me that the crux of this article is trying to find a justification to tax companies working in the AI space more without clearly articulating why.

Yes, the industries of today are going through a seismic shift, similar to the sewing revolution when sewers were losing jobs to machines, or when farm workers tilling the land by hand were replaced by machines, secretaries no longer being required as managers got computers and found it easier just to send an email themselves, etc.

In the near future, just as before, people whose skills are no longer required by industry will have to adapt to survive. But taxing industry just because it's becoming more efficient just has the effect of making that industry less competitive globally.

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#806

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that capital owners successfully avoid contributing to the financing of our states and social systems The top 1% pay 40% of the Federal income tax.

The top 1% arent the problem. The top <=0.001% are the problem.

The problem is the amount of government spending, which will never be enough.

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should capital have a separate tax rate than people?

Also, if companies have rights like people do, then they and their shareholders should be taxed like people are.

It's unfortunate, but corporations moving to nations with lower corporate rates could reduce overall revenue if the domestic rates are too aggressive. In many ways it's easier to corporations to change nations than citizens.

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same place they've always gone: to consumers purchasing the products made by those automated processes. The average person now is far wealthier in terms of actual purchasing power than the average person 100 years ago, and that's largely because of automation making everything cheaper.

> The same place they've always gone: to consumers purchasing the products made by those automated processes. The people who are "automated away" and have reduced income are also less of a consumer. In a society where most jobs are automated, who are the consumers?

You've spent your whole life living in a society where that's already happened. 1000 years ago nearly everyone was employed in agriculture. Now nearly all those jobs are automated.

So you tell me: where are the consumers? Why aren't we all unemployed and unable to afford to buy anything now that those agriculture jobs have been automated away? Or did we find other productive activities to spend our time on?

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#809
The real question isn't whether AI should pay taxes—it's whether we're even asking the right questions about what 'work' means in 20 years. Taxing AI is like taxing electricity after the industrial revolution. We didn't tax the looms, we restructured society around abundance.

The optimistic take nobody wants to hear: if AI genuinely replaces most knowledge work, we're not looking at a tax problem, we're looking at the first real chance to decouple survival from employment. That's either utopia or dystopia depending entirely on whether we're thinking in election cycles or generations.

Will include this link in my next issue of https://hackernewsai.com/

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#810
post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what are fair ways to extract value from citizens for the shared value of the state? The right question is who benefits the most from state’s services. For example if a whole lot of security, legislative or admin services go to protecting the capital, then those who has the most capital need to chip in the most. > redistribution is usually that “more” people reach a higher standard of living, then adding taxes and…

Actually real wages have increased a lot since the 70s if you count employer contributions to employee heath insurance. The problem is that a lot of that money is being wasted by an inefficient healthcare system, and employers probably shouldn't even be involved in sponsoring group health plans in the first place.

Employers paid for healthcare in 1970s too, and even for higher percentages of the workforce. If there is a premium inflation surpassed the CPI, that is still inflation, not real growth. If there’s an inflation problem in delivering a temporally comparable service, that is not a “real wage” item for the employee [1]. So what the nominal figure today shouldn’t be relevant.

I agree it shouldn’t be an employer item too, but whatever employers lose on premiums, they get more on an overall stickier and cheaper labor supply.

[1] one could argue the productivity of healthcare increased, and the data indeed supports this with the overall life expectancy increase from 70s to now mid 70s plus quality of life treatments. But again most of the spend is actually on the tail end at this age group, which raises the workers’ premium without delivering the benefit. Therefore not much structural gain for the actual working age employee.

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