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‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

latimes.com

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Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#801

Post by cess11 »

wonderwonder wrote: post #724
buyucu wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israeli military has murdered way more than 1000 men, women and children. History didn't start in 2023.

How is that relevant? Is your thought process that the government should just shrug say “oh those dastardly hamas guys got us this time. Fair play on the torture, mutilation, rape and kidnapping. They got our people fair and square they can keep them” Would you say the same if a bunch of iraqis murdered and raped your family due to what we did under Bush? Not really sure what point you’re trying to make. Its the gove…

"Its the governments job to punish those who hurt their citizens and ensure that it doesn’t happen again."

Right, so that's why Hamas took captives and tried to initiate negotiations. This was prompted by the annexation of the West Bank, starvation in the Gaza strip and other factors.

Israel found that their backers in the USA and elsewhere weren't going to force them to seriously negotiate and have since moved on to fulfilling the genocidal intents their leaders declared early on.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#802

Post by cess11 »

wonderwonder wrote: post #152
WaxProlix wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel that way about the last time Israel broke ceasefire in operation Cast Lead, which resulted in similar civilian vs combatant deaths? Maybe no amount of punishment is enough for the evil on the other side? It's not a helpful frame to think in tbh, because now you get to look at the considerably more evil thing done by Israel and justify - what - a chemical weapons attack or something against its citizens? L…

Agree, and the only way to stop the killing is for Hamas to return the hostages. There is literally no other way for it to happen, no matter what anyone says, that is the only way. Everything else is rhetoric and not grounded in reality. I'm under no illusion that Israel has clean hands here.

Israel could have gotten the captives back within a week or two from October 7th but refused, likely because this wasn't a popular opinion among jewish israelis at the time.

It still isn't, and even if there was a captive exchange the political mainstream in Israel would not retreat from the occupation of the Gaza strip, just as they aren't going to end the occupations in East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Lebanon or Syria, unless forced to do so by other states.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#803

Post by piva00 »

halflife wrote: post #658
ohdeargodno wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and you think that they shouldn’t get a sovereign country for themselves? That's a really easy question: no. Plenty of people don't have sovereign countries for themselves. Some of them persecuted, some of them integrated by force into other countries. Countries are not owed. They simply are. Tibet is being wholly integrated and controlled by China. Catalonia is somewhat asking for it, native americans are being rel…

Countries are not owed, they are either won, or given, in every instance of every county in history. Which is exactly how Israel came to be. No one is questioning the existence of Bulgaria as a separate entity from turkey, when they declared independence after the Russo Turkish war.

> No one is questioning the existence of Bulgaria as a separate entity from turkey, when they declared independence after the Russo Turkish war.

We would be if they were actively exterminating Turks living in their territory simply because they aren't Bulgarians.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#804

Post by saubeidl »

nandomrumber wrote: post #778
9dev wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The minimum rules we all must agree on have to be the basic human rights. And that means we can’t take all the civilians in Gaza hostage for Hamas. These are humans with hopes and dreams and friends and family, like you and like Israelis. That Israel in particular would so easily forget about this is horrible.

If the above mentioned surveys are to believed, then a not insignificant fraction of Israelis care less than you expect them to. Why is that? What are we misunderstanding about their perspective that causes the expectation to be off?

And that is exactly why global opinion is souring on Israel.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#805

Post by nujabe »

jonbodner wrote: post #656
nujabe wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netanyahu is the longest serving Israeli prime minister in history serving a combined 17 years. And he is tipped to win again next election. He very much embodies the will of the Israeli public. If you listen to their “liberal opposition” leaders like the likes of Yair Lapid and Benny Gantz they sound just as unhinged as Netanyahu himself [1] Every poll conducted on Israeli public opinion on the conflict would make h…

Except that's not the case at all. That one poll is extremely dodgy. Here's are other polls: https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-70-of-israelis-support-se... https://en.idi.org.il/articles/58648 https://en.idi.org.il/articles/59019 https://en.idi.org.il/articles/59940 https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/art... https://www.inss.org.il/publication/survey-april-2025/ But I'm pretty sure you are only…

You have no idea how far gone things are for you to be sprouting this weak hasbara.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#806

Post by DrillShopper »

halflife wrote: post #523
DrillShopper wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason the Palestinians are considered "ethno-nationalist" is that they are opposing a facist, genocidal, actually ethno-nationalist state that has spread its propaganda that any disagreement on any grounds is anti-semitism. It's ridiculous and I know the moment I see someone dig into their bag of slander with that they are not arguing in good faith. JIDF out in force again.

Palestinian are not ethno nationalists, they are a theocracy. And as a secular Israeli I would really not like to live under one.

You already do under the Israeli government - you're just living under the one you prefer.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#807

Post by DrillShopper »

halflife wrote: post #781
Balgair wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, I know this a rando internet commenter here, but what do you think is the solution then? To me, adding more money and guns into this conflict sounds like a really bad idea. But I'm not there and I'm just a fool as a result. I'm honestly asking and not just trolling, really. I'd love your perspective.

Ideally? Palestinian accepting the existence of Israel, foregoing their demands for the right to return and East Jerusalem, and then we can peacefully coexist. Realistically? Maintaining strong border security, erect more walls, prevent Palestinians from crossing into Israel, legally or illegally, control any gate they have with the outside to prevent smuggling of weapons. Regarding the hostages? Besiege Gaza until t…

I can't wait until the US government cuts Israel off from the weapons teet and tells them to fight their genocidal wars of aggression with their own money instead of the American taxpayer's money.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#809

Post by tome »

shkkmo wrote: post #669
tome wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not sure what you mean. Are you saying that when children are unintentionally killed in war that is "punishment"? Were the children killed by NATO troops in Afghanistan "punished"? For that matter, do you think Oct 7 was Palestine "punishing" Israel? > A blatant lie. Interesting. How are you so sure that the article I linked is a blatant lie and the one you linked isn't?

> when children are unintentionally killed Oops, I killed 17,000 kids, totally an accident, my bad, so I'm just gonna keep doing the same thing, but I said it was an accident so that's totally cool right? You realize that's more than a order of magnitude more than the total number of people killed on October 7th? If October 7th was justification for this war, what Isreal has done in response justifies so much more. (…

There seem to be a few strands getting entangled here. If you look earlier in the thread you'll see I'm asking for justification of the claim of "collective punishment". So far I haven't seen any, and indeed I haven't seen any direct responses to that request at all.

An observer following the thread (and maybe this applies to you too) might think "But what I am seeing as so egregious, why does it matter if it's technically 'collective punishment' or not? That's just nitpicking, splitting hairs, and a really awful thing to engage in when such suffering is occurring". Well then, if someone has such a strong argument that it easy for them to make it without leaving hairs that can be split, without leaving anything that could technically be nitpicked then let them make that argument. But so far I haven't found that argument. The arguments that I have found so far have loose ends, and when I pull on the loose ends I find invariably that the whole argument unravels.

So, the number of fatalities is not really relevant to this particular thread of discussion, but if you want to have a discussion on that topic, maybe we can check up front whether we have a reasonable basis for such a discussion: Do you believe that absolute numbers of civilian casualties determine morality in war? I don't.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#810

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

halflife wrote: post #576
lawlessone wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I’d be happy to live next to a Palestinian country, if it will recognize Israel as a Jewish state, Not sure i'd be happy to live next to a neighbor illegally occupying my former house.

Are you talking about native Americans? Germans that used to live in Poland? Jews that used to live in Syria? Israelis that lived in Sinai before it was returned to Egypt? Mexicans that lived Texas? Australian aboriginals? Inuits in Canada? How about the one million afghans Iran just expelled? If you’re not happy, that’s on you. Time moves on, you need to accept the existence of the Israeli state.

> If you’re not happy, that’s on you. Time moves on, you need to accept the existence of the Israeli state.

Fair enough, but what happens when the US (inevitably) decide that they're not going to support Israel anymore. Bibi has basically turned support of Israel into a culture war argument, and without consistent US support, I'm not sure Israel will survive in it's current form.

Mind you, climate change could make the whole Middle East uninhabitable before then, so it's possible that the Israeli state will last until then.

And lets be clear, I don't think most people have an issue with the existence of an Israeli state, but what's been happening in Judea and Samaria for the past twenty or so years and Gaza currently is deeply, deeply wrong and reminds me of my favourite phrase, "the only thing that we learn from history is that nobody learns from history". One would think that the Jewish people would have learned better lessons from their persecution, but apparently they learnt different lessons than I expected.

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