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‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

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Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#801

Post by throw310822 »

pegasus wrote: post #796
throw310822 wrote: post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's perfectly clear and always was. One country is illegally occupying territories outside its borders, illegally annexing them, transferring their civilian population there, ethnically cleansing the natives, enforcing apartheid against those who remain, using its soldiers to protect its citizens when they engage in pogroms against the natives, periodically bombing them, stealing their water, destroying their c…

That's because you choose to look to only that one side of the story. Keeps things nice and tidy, it's true.

"That one side of the story" are the facts on the ground.

- One side is occupying the other's lands, not the other way around.

- One side has killed most people, not the other way around.

- One side has illegally annexed the other's territory, not the other way around.

- One side enforces apartheid, not the other way around.

- One side regularly destroys the other's villages, not the other way around.

- One side steals water, destroys greenhouses and olive groves, imposes blockades- not the other way around.

- One side is rich, organised, well armed, and has the full support of the West, not the other way around.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#802

Post by mandmandam »

elcritch wrote: post #728
rixed wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If didn't downvote nor flag, but wanted to help you clarify your misunderstanding. The vast majority of people across the world is in favour of the end of bombing and segregation, and against the regime that perpetuate it, if only because of empathy alone. And HN does indeed reflects this to some extent. What the OP was alluding to when he said that pro palestinian view points were silenced is the more or less dissim…

[flagged]

> The stories have been routinely retracted by the BBC, NYTimes, Washington Post, NPR, etc after they’re later shown false.

Do any of these stories compare to the mainstream media's systematic lies about 40 beheaded babies? Or babies burned in ovens? Or systematic rape? Did the US President launder any of those lies long after they were debunked?

Were the stories about premie babies left to rot at Al Nasr true? Were the stories about Hind Rajab true? Were the stories about civilians being used as target practice while they try to get aid true? Were the stories about the IDF mass murdering a convoy of emergency vehicles and burying them in a shallow unmarked grave true?

Do Hamas have people in the BBC censoring stories they don't like? Did the NYT run huge stories by Hamas "journalists" with no experience and no evidence?

> Yesterday I saw the story that’s been in almost every major news publication showing an emaciated boy starving while his mother holds him with headlines of “Gazan children starving”.

You don't refute that the boy is starving. He's far from the only one. Gaza is in stage 5 of famine; the effect of which will be felt for generations - and you think a photo of a "well fed" (and horrifically traumatized for life) boy proves that they're actually fine??

Read the comments on your own link - they're absolutely vile and I won't repeat them here, but that you think this is making a good case for you is absolutely wild.

How many people have been murdered while trying to get aid in the past week? Are those stories lies too, even though they come from whistleblowers who were there; even though there's video of some of the incidents?

Sometimes I almost feel pity for the type of mind that can defend the perpetrators of these acts. But this is going on for 21 months (and 80 years) now. At some point - long past - you become fully complicit by defending this holocaust.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#803

Post by Zacharias030 »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #789
6yyyyyy wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ideal answer is the UN sends in peacekeeping forces to kick out the IDF. That won't happen due to the USA. So in practice the answer to "How will the Gazans eat?" is "They won't."

If the UN sent in peacekeepers the IDF would use them for target practice. It would be a total bloodbath. Leaving aside the horror of the thought, the only way to stop Israel's assault on Gaza with a military force is to summon one more powerful than the IDF. There are only a few nations in the world that have a military that could take on the IDF - the US, Russia, China, I'm not sure who else. None of those countrie…

Start with robust sanctions.

It seems unlikely that the IDF will do anything to an international peace force operating in Gaza (not Israel) under a combined lead of France and the UK.

Anyway, it would exactly only take one country - the US - to stop shipping weapons (to credibly threaten to stop) to bring this to an end so fast that you can‘t even finish breakfast.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#804

Post by rightbyte »

protocolture wrote: post #472
zetazzed wrote: post #220

I see an increasing number of politicians taking the position: "I supported Israel's government's actions when they first attacked, given the goals of destroying Hamas' leadership and freeing hostages, but now that it has turned into a brutal siege with mass civilian casualties on a horrific scale, I'm strongly against their actions." E.g. Macron, Angus King, and many people I know personally. And I think we need to…

Eh nuance. Accept anyone who can accept they were wrong. But it has to come with that understanding, that they were wrong. Growth and understanding are great. "I love bombing civilian populations, I just hate the consequences of bombing civilian populations" is not the amazing support that people on the ground are looking for. Gotta attack the why. Why would you support killing civilians who pose no threat to you in…

> Its like closing a ticket without addressing the root cause. Just gonna come up again.

(Note, I agree with your post and is not criticising you.)

There is something poetic about making an analogy to Jira. It somewhats sums up the fatalistic emotional indifference among many to the genocide.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#806

Post by netsharc »

beepbopboopp wrote: post #492
droopyEyelids wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m having trouble distilling the essence of your message in a way that leaves us with any common moral ground. Would you agree that “an eye for an eye” type justice is undesirable? Because it seems like you are advocating for genocide as a response to the oct attack, going well beyond “eye for an eye”!

Boiling it down to a catch phrase does it no justice. The war is being fought in a urban area, with an armed forced who refuses ceasefire and has repeatedly said it wont rest until all isrealis are dead. Again, my comment is, if you want them to stop fighting, what would you have them do next? Im not being rhetorical.

How does this country claim to be any better than Hamas butchers, when they can't conduct a war where their bullets and bombs hit defenseless children? They've been saying "oops, that was a mistake" so many times that it's obvious their operating procedure is "drop the bomb here and we don't care about civilian deaths".

Or they use the excuse that terrorists are hiding under hospitals and schools, so dropping bombs on these things are perfectly acceptable. In my book that's morally indefensible and makes them not very different to Hamas butchers.

Or if you can accept that, maybe crashing planes into the WTC towers is acceptable too (and what about a military target like the Pentagon)...

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#807

Post by rendaw »

jaredklewis wrote: post #649
rendaw wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels more likely that if you push the message "yes, this is great" for the short term win they get elected again next term. When do you switch from saying "yes these people are great for flip-flopping" to "no these people are terrible don't vote for them", and how do you say it in a way that gets through people's subtlety filters and doesn't make it look like you're flip flopping yourself?

Well, yea there’s a tension here. If we want to use Gaza as a political tool to achieve some political aim (ie get my guy elected), that will be in conflict with doing something to help Gaza. Because in most countries, doing something meaningful is likely going to require cooperation between politicians from different parties. And it’s hard to get people to cooperate if you don’t plan on sharing the credit.

I do think cooperation and letting bygones be bygones for the sake of progress are important.

But I don't think it's right to frame it as "get my guy elected" vs "help Gaza". Does decrying them on social media mean they will flip flop again and be pro-gaza massacre? Even if that's the case, it's "get someone elected who will avoid Gaza-like tragedies in the future" vs "help Gaza now" which isn't black and white. Also, these people cooperated to enable the massacre in the first place...

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#808

Post by 1718627440 »

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #633

For everyone in this thread hoping for a "Marshall Plan" or other functional aid regime for Gaza, keep in mind that the Marshall Plan began with defeat . It was only with Germany's unconditional surrender that the Allies could establish security and make a plan for the future. Hamas has had many opportunities to surrender and hasn't taken them. Hitler had many opportunities, as well; but chose not to. Surrender was n…

There were also people in the German Realm, aiming for negotiations (July-Assassinations, Stauffenberg), but the allies made it clear early on that they don't wanted a peace deal, which led to less support among the conspirators.

It was also the US-Marshall Plan (not the allied) and it was also for Europe not for Germany.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#809

Post by netsharc »

josephg wrote: post #468
giraffe_lady wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was clear to me and many other people from the first days after oct 7 that the actions taken by israel in gaza did not align with their stated goals, and that genocide was the likely outcome. I hope people changing their view of it now will reflect on at what point they could have seen that, and what prevented them from seeing it, and what prevented them from taking seriously the people who did see it. Does everyo…

Oh? Help me understand this position. If you were in charge of Israel on October 7, what would you have done differently? It sounds like there was some better course of action they could have taken that seems obvious to you. It’s not at all obvious to me. Please share.

If I could invent a time machine to be in charge of Israel on Oct 7, I'd try to make the time machine travel further to the past...

If somehow I quantum-leapt into Netanyahu (shudder) on Oct 7, I'd tell the military to not bomb civilians indiscriminately. The bloodthirsty barbaric hardliners of the Israeli government/society would've called me/him a pussy and done a coup d'etat, either real or de facto, and I/he would've ended up in prison for the corruption.

At least if it was Quantum Leap, I could leap out.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#810

Post by jiggawatts »

dang wrote: post #48
crystal_revenge wrote: post #17

As someone who went to US high school in the 90s, a good 1/3 of our curriculum seemed to be "never again" studies of the holocaust and other genocides throughout history. Which makes it completely incomprehensible to me that suddenly "don't talk about genocide" has become the basically law. What's worse is I actually feel openly saying "I don't support this genocide and I'm critical of the state committing it" is a r…

> The downvotes and flagged comments in this post are clearly not "organic" FWIW the downvotes and flags in threads like this, including this thread, do seem largely organic to me, and well within the range of what one expects from a divisive and emotional topic. People often use words like "clearly" in making such descriptions (I don't mean to pick on you personally! countless users do this, from all sides of all is…

I concur: Sometimes I get downvoted when making what I thought were nuanced comments, but then after a few replies I realised that I had left a few things open to misinterpretation. A few corrections later... upvotes. That feels organic.
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