Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is one of these philosophies that I hate more then almost any other. The idea that is bad that poor Indian and Chinese people now have access to anything from clean water to planes is absurd. You can sit there in your luxury house and cry about consumer culture but for millions of people its basic stuff that they have access to for the first time. And in Europe, despite increasing quality of live, both total ene…
Lmao how can you say 'poor Indian and Chinese people' in the same sentence? China is a first world country
The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality
801–810 of 824 posts
Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality
#802Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality
#803Earlier quoted context omitted.
What did Churchill say about Democracy? It's the worst except all the others? Yea. I'll take all this government mismanagement and markets over Communism and Socialism. The State is never good at managing the means of production.
Socialism isn't when the state manages the means of production, it's when the workers do. What we have now, but without 80% of the value you create getting siphoned off to lazy bums who do nothing all day and collect a fat paycheck.
That's the great thing about Democracy. You can do things like found a socialist business model and have it compete in the market and you can respect the rights of others to not do so. If your model is better, or if it works well for you and like-minded folks, then all is well.
If they're just lazy bums siphoning away their fat paycheck, surely your method will be better and you will show the other workers a better way and you can all unite and create similar collective ownership models.
Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality
#804Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Oh, I didn't realize till the end that you were treating this as a team thing, and capitalism is "your team", so you must attack "the other team". Do you think that attitude affected the rest of your response, too? It’s just empirical. Both Communism and Socialism are failed ideologies. Millions dead. Millions more starved. It’s like when Libertarians want to bring about their ideology and people tell them to move…
I guess capitalism is a failed ideology too then. Billions dead, with a B. For that matter, I guess all ideologies are failed, so maybe ideological failure is completely meaningless.
Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality
#805Earlier quoted context omitted.
Socialism isn't when the state manages the means of production, it's when the workers do. What we have now, but without 80% of the value you create getting siphoned off to lazy bums who do nothing all day and collect a fat paycheck.
There's nothing that stops you today from creating a business with your fellow workers and doing just that. That's the great thing about Democracy. You can do things like found a socialist business model and have it compete in the market and you can respect the rights of others to not do so. If your model is better, or if it works well for you and like-minded folks, then all is well. If they're just lazy bums siphoni…
There are significant barriers to that, not least of which is access to capital.
But that's also not socialism, socialism is the economic system where that is true across the whole economy.
> That's the great thing about Democracy. You can do things like found a socialist business model and have it compete in the market and you can respect the rights of others to not do so.
Aside from misunderstanding aocialism as a business model and not an economic system, what you describe (where you are superficially free to do this but obstructed by structural barriers and a politico-economic system geared to favor a different model) has nothing to do with democracy and everything to do with capitalism, an economic system that,because political and economic power are fungible and capitalism is centered around around concentrating the latter in a narrow class, is in constant tension with and undermines political democracy.
Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality
#806Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's nothing that stops you today from creating a business with your fellow workers and doing just that. That's the great thing about Democracy. You can do things like found a socialist business model and have it compete in the market and you can respect the rights of others to not do so. If your model is better, or if it works well for you and like-minded folks, then all is well. If they're just lazy bums siphoni…
> There's nothing that stops you today from creating a business with your fellow workers and doing just that. There are significant barriers to that, not least of which is access to capital. But that's also not socialism, socialism is the economic system where that is true across the whole economy . > That's the great thing about Democracy. You can do things like found a socialist business model and have it compete i…
That's a barrier to start any business. Life is tough. I'm not sympathetic.
> But that's also not socialism, socialism is the economic system where that is true across the whole economy.
> Aside from misunderstanding aocialism as a business model and not an economic system, what you describe (where you are superficially free to do this but obstructed by structural barriers and a politico-economic system geared to favor a different model) has nothing to do with democracy and everything to do with capitalism, an economic system that,because political and economic power are fungible and capitalism is centered around around concentrating the latter in a narrow class, is in constant tension with and undermines political democracy.
Just because it has various definitions and subcategories, can you just explain what Socialism means to you?
What I'm hearing is you want to abolish capitalism and replace it with workers (not the government) owning the means of production. Is that right/fair?
And then Communism we'd define as the government actually owning the means of production. Is that right/fair?
Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality
#807Earlier quoted context omitted.
Shoe culture places very little emphasis on the actual quality of the product. Brand and exclusivity is far more important.
There's sneaker head culture and than there's the high end foot wear crowd. Sneaker heads are all about the new nike x yeezy "mchitler edition" collab air joran X's high end foot wear crowd will drop 700$ on aldens and almost 1000$ on a pair of boots from whites or nicks which will outlive you and your parents. It's not the same crowd.
Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality
#808Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Prior to that energy was almost seen as disposable Turns out that from an environmental perspective, that view was bad anyway and I'm glad it's gone for good (even if the AI hype almost makes us forget that again). I don't fully see how that implies everything having to be crap now. Lighter doesn't mean worse quality.
> Lighter doesn't mean worse quality. It doesn't, but heft of a product is used as a proxy for quality, to the point that electronics will sometimes have a weight glued inside to pretend the item is heavier than it is, in order to seem of higher quality.
Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality
#809Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Prior to that energy was almost seen as disposable Turns out that from an environmental perspective, that view was bad anyway and I'm glad it's gone for good (even if the AI hype almost makes us forget that again). I don't fully see how that implies everything having to be crap now. Lighter doesn't mean worse quality.
> Lighter doesn't mean worse quality For a number of product categories it means replacing solid metal parts with inferior materials, and that pretty explicitly does mean worse quality. Have you used a 1960s KitchenAid mixer? They look almost identical to models that followed - but in the 1970s KitchenAid replaced the metal drive gear with one made of nylon on the consumer-focussed models, and now if you use one heav…
Re: The bewildering phenomenon of declining quality
#810Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There's nothing that stops you today from creating a business with your fellow workers and doing just that. There are significant barriers to that, not least of which is access to capital. But that's also not socialism, socialism is the economic system where that is true across the whole economy . > That's the great thing about Democracy. You can do things like found a socialist business model and have it compete i…
> There are significant barriers to that, not least of which is access to capital. That's a barrier to start any business. Life is tough. I'm not sympathetic. > But that's also not socialism, socialism is the economic system where that is true across the whole economy. > Aside from misunderstanding aocialism as a business model and not an economic system, what you describe (where you are superficially free to do this…
Its an additional barrier in a capitalist economy to starting an equal-ownership labor coop, because the people who do control capital prefer that businesses they fund be owned by the suppliers of capital.
> Life is tough.
And capitalism is organized around making it tougher for the vast majority so that it can be easier for an elite minority.
> I'm not sympathetic.
Clearly, though I’m not sure why you are so proud of that.
> Just because it has various definitions and subcategories, can you just explain what Socialism means to you?
Socialism means that the workers (which is equivalent to the people at large, since without private ownership of the means of production, the capitalist classes do not exist) owning the means of production and exercising control democratically. There are a large numbers of particular eays that this can be structured.
> What I'm hearing is you want to abolish capitalism and replace it with workers (not the government) owning the means of production. Is that right/fair?
The government is a means by which the workers can exercise some part of their control of the means of production, and in any practical socialist system a robustly democratic government will play some role (possibly not much more or much different in broad shape, outside of specifically rules on ownership of particular assets, than in the modern mixed economies that have replaced capitalism in the strict sense in most of the developed world since the mid-20th century, but also possibly significantly more in some areas.)
But I’m personally an incrementalist and not a radical revolutionary, so while “abolish capitalism” is in a sense technically correct, what I’d mostly prefer is continued incremental steps to reduce the structural favoritism granted to the capitalist class and to distribute increasing power to the working class (either directly as such or by democratically empowering the people without regard to class).
> And then Communism we'd define as the government actually owning the means of production. Is that right/fair?
“Communism” is a proposed utopian end state beyond socialism that some socialists (who are also known as “Communists” for this reason) believe is the ultimate goal, and also a name for the set of socialists who believe in one of the various schools of thought that have that as their end goal.
What you are describing as “Communism” is, ideally, state socialism, wherein the people at large control the means of production through robustly democratic state institutions. In practice, though, attempts to implement an economic system around it have actually ended up being, and mostly getting stuck in state capitalism [0], wherein a narrow and self-perpetuating elite controls both the state and, through the state, the means of production and society more generally.
The extent to which this is an inherent failure of state socialism versus a failure of the particular adaptations of Marxism made in Leninism to bypass (private) capitalism and the frequently associated development of democratic norms to attempt to implement state socialism in environments that are pre- or early-capitalist is a matter of some debate among the socialists outside of the schools that are willfully blind to the problem.
It is popularly associated with “Communism” because movements that have been successulf in taking control of regimes and which call themselves Communist have invariably been from Leninism or one of its derivatives which favor this model, but it isn't centrally what distinguished Communist schools of thought from other socialist ones, nor is it inherent in Communism at all; the relationship is incidental.
[0] there are some cases, like the PRC, that have “escaped” simple state capitalism for something more like fascist corporatism, but whether that's an improvement over being stuck in state capitalism is debatable. It is certainly better from the point of view of private capitalists, but...