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IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#801

Post by teleforce »

prmoustache wrote: post #656
ost-ing wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Be aware that Jews are not native to Palestine, except those that had been living there before the state was founded. Not true, many Semitic Jews who fled from those lands due to persecution went to Europe and North Africa, that includes Ashkenazi and Sephardim Jews. The difficulty I have with your statement is akin to denying a white, blue eyed aboriginal in Australia their heritage to the land just because one of…

Palestinians are genetically closer to the jews that populated those lands centuries ago. The reality is palestinians ancestors were mostly jews who decided to convert to islam. Denying their rights to continue living there is absurd. The state of Israel is just another example of euro white colonialism.

>Palestinians are genetically closer to the jews that populated those lands centuries ago. The reality is palestinians ancestors were mostly jews who decided to convert to islam.

Thank you for pointing this fact, if this is true it makes the Israel govt as self-hating Jews, and is very sad and ironic at the same time. The Israel govt should perform thorough DNA test on the Palestinian people. Potentially many Palestinians can have higher Jews ancestors percentage than the emigrants themselves.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#802

Post by Myrmornis »

I appreciate that this topic has been permitted to stay on the HN front page. It has been utterly horrific watching the barbaric and inhuman behavior of Israel. I have no idea how we are supposed to ever respect or forgive our own states that have aquiesced in this, let alone Israel.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#803

Post by dlubarov »

stats111 wrote: post #736

Gaza is the the grave yard of not only Palestinians, but the lie of a rules-based international order. Israel has been allowed to get away with - the backing on it's western allies - flagrant legal violations of international law, alongside accusations of Genocide by the ICJ.

The accusations of genocide were brought by South Africa, not the ICJ which hasn't made any finding on the matter yet.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#804

Post by greazy »

kulahan wrote: post #767
i_love_retros wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They absolutely should face something similar to the Nuremberg trials. This is planned extermination of a group of people. Unfortunately the Israeli lobby has so much money and power they would silence anyone who says that publicly by accusing them of being antisemitic.

Arguably then, shouldn’t China be ahead of them in line for Uighur camps, and the US for the Japanese camps?

It's possible to have multiple trials occurring simultaneously. Also whataboutism is not at all helpful to the discussion at hand.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#805

Post by skissane »

kulahan wrote: post #764
edanm wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you consider ethno-nationalists of other nations (far) left, based on (speculating) their economic/women's rights/LGBT/other social stances? If your implication is that I'm an ethno-nationalist, I don't think that characterizes Israel or my thoughts about it, however much "ethnostate" is a favorite slur of people to use against Israel.

I think it might be a slur on, say, reddit, but isn’t most of the world a bunch of ethnostates? Isn’t that kinda one of the things that makes the US stand out, is that it’s explicitly not one? I’m asking this unironically, but I guess I thought e.g. Ireland was pretty homogenous, as is Japan, Ethiopia, Cuba, Peru, and Denmark. (Maybe some of those examples aren’t perfect but you get my point I hope)

> I’m asking this unironically, but I guess I thought e.g. Ireland was pretty homogenous

In the 2022 census, only 76.5% of people in Ireland were ethnically Irish. Over 20% of the population are foreign-born, with the most common countries of foreign birth being Poland, the UK, India, Romania and Lithuania.

So Ireland is far less homogeneous than you perceive it to be.

But the real issue here isn’t how diverse the state’s population is in practice, it is how the state defines itself in its own founding documents (such as the constitution) - as a state for all its citizens, or as a state for a people (ethnos) which is only a subset of the state’s citizens? Israel is (2) but essentially all Western nations nowadays are (1).

Even though the French and German constitutions still express the idea of a “national people” for whom the state exists, they consider anyone who is naturalised as a citizen as joining that people (“ethnos”). By contrast, a non-Jew can immigrate to Israel and become an Israeli citizen-but the state will still not consider them a member of the people for whom the state exists-only conversion to Judaism does that, and only if their conversion is accepted as valid by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate-non-Orthodox conversions will not be accepted, but they sometimes even reject conversions by overseas Orthodox Rabbis whom they don’t consider “rigorous” enough.

So Israel is actually unique in this regard - no Western nation makes becoming “not just a citizen of the state, but a member of the people for whom it exists” contingent on religious conversion. If you want a parallel, you’d have to look at the Islamic world, where non-Muslims are sometimes (not always) permitted citizenship, but are denied membership in the category of “nation for whose sake the state exists”

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#806

Post by YZF »

Hikikomori wrote: post #710
YZF wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really surprised to hear another Jewish person speak about this in language that evokes the Nuremberg trials. The article generally describes the IDF being asked to do crowd control with lethal weapons. For the most part it also described casualties (number unclear/unknown) as unintentional consequences. I agree this does not look good but it's also not a matter of fact either. We don't know the facts, we don't k…

We don't know the facts. Like we didn't do with the buried ambulances and journalists like Shireen Akleh. It didn't happen. We didn't do it. If it happened Hamas did it. If we did it they deserved it. Oh it's on video, our bad, we did an oopsie. Countless of cases like this.

I agree these don't all look good but you're lumping different things under the same umbrella. And you're blaming the victim. If Hamas didn't attack Israel on Oct 7th then there wouldn't be Israeli soldiers in Gaza killing and getting killed and there wouldn't be issues with ambulances. It doesn't help that Hamas uses ambulances and that its combatants don't wear uniforms and rely on being able to pass as civilians as part of their strategy.

So yes, an Israeli ambush in Gaza that opened fire on a civilian vehicle is something that should be looked at. But they get a lot of leeway because it's a war and in a war mistakes can happen. In order for this to be a crime you need to show beyond doubt the soldiers knew these were civilians and intentionally wanted to kill them. There were other civilians that passed unharmed through the same forces and so proving intent is pretty difficult.

Whether it's on video or not doesn't matter. In a war soldiers will potentially kill civilians. The bar is different from peacetime operations. The war was started, and is continued, by Hamas. Yes it looks bad. Yes the IDF should do whatever it can to minimize it. Yes there are whackos.

I realize I'm not going to convince you but I believe that if the Palestinians stopped using violence you wouldn't see any incidents of Palestinians getting killed by security forces. The stories they are telling you about resistance and occupation are false. I am painting a broad brush here- Some Palestinians just want to live in peace. But too many do not. Pressure on Israel is misguided. Pressure should be on Hamas to surrender. Pressure on Israel emboldens Hamas, makes the war go on longer, and is not helping Palestinians. Even if you believe Israelis are evil you should still pressure the Palestinians because they are the ones who need to end this war. After the war is over we can talk about what to do next. Israelis can't and won't be pressured into letting Hamas remain in power.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#807

Post by maskil »

mrcwinn wrote: post #364
the__alchemist wrote: post #218

Some context first so my opinion isn't misconstrued as as leftist stereotype. This is within context of the behavior described in the article. - I'm a Jew in USA, and served in the military for more than a decade. - I used to get annoyed by the Palestinian protests I'd see in the years before this, and generally sided with Israel, and the operations its military performed in counter-Shia-militia operations etc in the…

I love the Jewish community, so I don’t say this lightly, but I view Netanyahu actions as somewhat resembling Nazi Germany in one respect (though certainly not others). He may not believe Israeli Jews have a birthright to the whole world (rather they are trying to strengthen one nation’s borders), but there is no doubt in my mind they are indiscriminately cleansing a people out of existence. That is their aim, beyond…

[flagged]

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#808

Post by throwaway3060 »

the_g0d_f4ther wrote: post #800
throwaway3060 wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This scenario already played out before in history; some people may believe those groups to have been heroes, but most can recognize that fighting in the name of independence did not make those groups any less guilty of committing atrocities against civilians. At the same time, that doesn't take away today from the people fighting for freedom legitimately. If anything, those groups hurt their cause in the long-run, a…

Would you say the same about fighting nazi occupation ? Whatever the cost and the consequences (targeting civilians, infrastructure, etc)

I'm not aware of any "resistance groups" fighting the Nazis that created horrors of this kind - though the Soviet army itself probably did. In my opinion, what distinguishes these kinds of massacres is their utter meaninglessness; they serve no military purpose, they are usually even detrimental to military goals. Going door to door killing does nothing to advance a cause - it is purely an expression of hate.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#809

Post by [deleted] »

mhb wrote: post #505
chimineycricket wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Israel wouldn't attack Gaza if the terrorists who run that place didn't have a constitutional ambition to destroy Israel. Really? The > 750,000 Palestinians pushed out of their homes in 1948, when "Israelis" showed up for the first time, backed up by guns, were Hamas? News to me.

History doesn't begin in 1948.

[deleted]

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#810

Post by wordofx »

goldfishgold wrote: post #796
wordofx wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

How does this post misrepresent Israel’s options and its apparent decision?

Palestine has had many opportunities for statehood. Current President of Israel is not completely opposed to statehood, citing security concerns which are clearly valid considering Palestine has repeatedly broken cease fire agreements and Hamas entire goal is to eradicate Israel. They are not being treated as sub-human. Remember Israel warns Palestine of air strikes. There have been many reports of Hamas refusing to allow people to leave sites that are targeted for the sole purpose of of martyrdom. The only people being exterminated is the terrorist Organization Hamas.

All 4 bullet points are either completely false or misleading.

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