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"Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

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Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#801

Post by johnnyanmac »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #772
johnnyanmac wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congress has all the enforcement power, they can impeach the president whenever they want. Will they? I don't know, he's already gone so far in constitutional overreach that he's making Nixon blush. Judiciary has more power than you'd think too. It's just that they try to act in good faith and generally do not want to throw people into civil contempt that often. The SCOTUS can even re-re-interpret the presidential im…

> Congress has all the enforcement power, they can impeach the president whenever they want. Regarding the power of the judiciary in this, Trump's team is arguing right now before the Supreme Court that the judiciary has no power to constrain the President's power when he's acting solely within the Executive branch (which is basically all the time...) Oh, and as part of that filing he reminded the Supreme Court that…

Okay, that's not even the craziest argument the judiciary has gotten. They'll just smash it down like everything else. If he ignores that, the court can escalate. Which is unprecedented for such office, but well in their powers. They can easily reinterpret presidential immunity as well in light of this entire month so that isn't really his protection.

>Sorry, the Republic is toast.

So what's your next action in life?

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#802

Post by g-b-r »

refurb wrote: post #729
dragonwriter wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "these subordinates must still execute based on the President's interpretation, not their own". Yes, this is a problem, because it would mean that if the President (for simplicity, the order also specified the AG, but it doesn't really change the issue) had an opinion on the law, and the courts issued an order to an executive officer such as a department head in a lawsuit contrary to that interpretation, the depart…

> the department head would remain bound by the Presidential interpretation until the President relented I don't know what you mean by "bound"? The President, EOs and the exective branch are not immune from court decisions. If a court rules again an EO, the President would need to abide by that court decision. As per this EO, the department head would do what the President wanted (align to the court order), and would…

> I'm not sure we'd want to have an unelected executive agencies that is unaccountable to head of the executive branch. That just wouldn't even make sense.

Independent agencies, that execute their mission rather than the whims of one man (and are accountable to the law) don't make sense to you?

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#803

Post by refurb »

Nevermark wrote: post #788
apple4ever wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>setting up the president as the sole power center is an inherently unstable system. But that is what the Constitution specifies (Article II Section 1): > The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. I find it funny people either don't know this or are intentionally ignoring it. The entire power is vested in one person, who can delegate the enforcement of it to lower officers. >…

All three branches of the government are beholden to the Constitution as a whole, and to each other based on the Constitutional roles and their expressions of their roles. All government actors individually are also responsible to the Constitution and its expression by all three branches first , before any loyalty to anyone else. In the same branch or not. Even before the current top office holders of the executive b…

> Saying that a President’s personal interpretation of Congress’ laws or the courts precedence, completely overrides any individual executive employees good faith understanding and responsibility to the Constitution, laws, and judicial rulings is madness.

But it's not madness based on the intended structure of government? The EO isn't saying "ignore Constitutional violations". It wouldn't be valid if it did.

If Congress passes a law that say "tobacco is banned", and the US President says "I will direct my agencies to follow this new law" and you have agencies saying "I'm not a lawyer, but I feel like this law is unconstitutional so my agency is not going to follow it!"?

How would the government even function if you have 100 agencies with 50 of them having the power to come up with their own interpretation of the law? How is that even workable as a branch of government?

The executive branch of government is more accurately viewed as a monolithic organization which derives 100% of it's authority by delegation from the US President. This is why the president personally selects the heads of each agency (with the Senate approving). Authority moves down from the president all the way to the most junior government employee - they are acting on behalf of the president.

> There will be disagreements within a branch that will need to be worked out.

What does "worked out" mean?

For legal issues the President will consult the US attorney general. If it's complex, the DOJ might create a white paper determining the constitutionality of a law or not.

To have an agency head disagree with that determination seems like a rogue agency. Why would that agency head know better than the attorney general?

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#804

Post by FuckButtons »

refurb wrote: post #800
apple4ever wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>setting up the president as the sole power center is an inherently unstable system. But that is what the Constitution specifies (Article II Section 1): > The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. I find it funny people either don't know this or are intentionally ignoring it. The entire power is vested in one person, who can delegate the enforcement of it to lower officers. >…

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#805

Post by class4behavior »

arunabha wrote: post #503

In general, people are going to interpret this EO with their own lens. Unsurprisingly, reasonable people may disagree on the merits of the EO as a whole. However this part of the EO is pretty concerning > 'The President and the Attorney General, subject to the President’s supervision and control, shall provide authoritative interpretations of law for the executive branch' and later > 'No employee of the executive bra…

It's really sad no one just looks up the legal principles conservatives are pushing forward together with Trump.

Here, it's the unified executive theory, which is based on how the US system had worked for its first century.

Same with the birthright citizenship. The conservative argument is actually to a degree fairly reasonable. If I say this, then the current SC will surely rule in favor.

Just read the Wiki for an intro on the details.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#806

Post by ExoticPearTree »

lenerdenator wrote: post #761
ExoticPearTree wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>However this part of the EO is pretty concerning >> 'The President and the Attorney General, subject to the President’s supervision and control, shall provide authoritative interpretations of law for the executive branch' and later >> 'No employee of the executive branch acting in their official capacity may advance an interpretation of the law as the position of the United States that contravenes the President or t…

Difficulty: This isn't the corporate world and the worst-case scenario here isn't being sued or taking a trip to bankruptcy court, it's the potential downfall of a nuclear-armed superpower. Which is why business leaders, at least ones like Trump, need to be kept far, far away from government. The goal isn't to maximize value, it's to administer a society in a sustainable way.

It doesn’t really matter, unfortunately the whole federal workforce has a single boss: POTUS. And now they have a really moody one.

The US needs to come with some new checks and balances for presidential power. With every new election the president asserts more and more power, and the Congress sits idly by.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#807

Post by hector126 »

thrance wrote: post #774

Is anyone still doubting that what's happening is the actual death of American Democracy? Anyone still willing to argue that this is about freedom and cutting waste?

I would argue that this is not the end of your country's democracy and that in 2028 a new president will be elected.

You'd disagree, I trust?

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#808

Post by FuckButtons »

heresie-dabord wrote: post #722
timoth3y wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with a highly sympathetic Supreme Court it is hard to imagine this EO standing. It goes against the foundation of not only US law, but couple of hundred years of international democratic tradition in which allegiance is not to a person, but to the nation itself. US civil servants and military alike swear an oath to support and defend the Constitution not the president or their commander. Illegal orders are not o…

> it is hard to imagine this EO standing There are many things that I thought would not survive the scrutiny of good people within the system of checks and balances. But here were are. It seems that "good people within the system of checks and balances" were the only obstacle to absolute power.

There used to be competing centers of power. But then they stacked the judiciary and used manipulative propaganda to turn the congress and senate into a rubber stamp. The only check on power was having the interest of those institutions not aligned with each other, for them to have power that they were able to exercise independently.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#810

Post by AlotOfReading »

refurb wrote: post #800
apple4ever wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>setting up the president as the sole power center is an inherently unstable system. But that is what the Constitution specifies (Article II Section 1): > The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. I find it funny people either don't know this or are intentionally ignoring it. The entire power is vested in one person, who can delegate the enforcement of it to lower officers. >…

[flagged]

A CEO sending out that memo would be similarly ill-advised. For one, that's what counsel is for. For another, workers are intentionally encouraged to interpret laws and report discrepancies via government whistleblower programs.
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