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US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

reuters.com

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Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#801

Post by pessimizer »

drowsspa wrote: post #789
Fomite wrote: post #737

"Driver is mostly disengaged, but then must intervene in a sudden fail state" is also one of the most dangerous types of automation due to how long it takes the driver to reach full control as well.

Yeah, I don't drive but I would think it would be worse than actually paying attention all the time

It's also a problem that gets worse as the software gets better. Having to intervene once every 5 minutes is a lot easier than having to intervene once every 5 weeks. If lack of intervention causes an accident, I'd bet on the 5 minute car avoiding an accident longer than the 5 week car for any span of time longer than 10 weeks.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#802

Post by bink »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #668
dchichkov wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm grateful to be getting a car from another manufacturer this year. I'm curious, what is the alternative that you are considering? I've been delaying an upgrade to electric for some time. And now, a car manufacturer that is contributing to the making of another Jan 6th, 2021 is not an option, in my opinion.

I also went into car shopping with that opinion, but the options are bleak in terms of other carmakers' software. For some reason, if you want basic software features of a Tesla, the other carmakers want an extra $20k+ (and still don't have some). A big example is why do the other carmakers not yet offer camera recording on their cars? They are all using cameras all around, but only Tesla makes it available to you in…

Rivian also allows recording drives to an SSD. They also just released a feature where you can view the cameras while it's parked. I'm kinda surprised other manufacturers aren't allowing that.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#803

Post by penjelly »

yCombLinks wrote: post #360
penjelly wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd challenge the legitimacy of the claim that it's 10x safer, or even safer at all. The safety data provided isn't compelling to me, it can be games or misrepresented in various ways, as pointed out by others.

That claim wasn't made. It was a hypothetical, what if it was 10x safer? Then would people tolerate it.

yes people would, if we had a reliable metric for safety of these systems besides engaged/disengaged. We don't, and 10x safer with the current metrics is not satisfactory.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#804

Post by bink »

dboreham wrote: post #755
kingkongjaffa wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> right turns on red This is a idiosyncrasy of the US (maybe other places too?) and I wonder if it's easier to do self driving at junctions, in countries without this rule.

Only some states allow turn on red, and it's also often overridden by a road sign that forbids. But for me the ultimate test of AGI is four-or-perhaps-three-or-perhaps-two way stop intersections. You have to know whether the other drivers have a stop sign or not in order to understand how to proceed, and you can't see that information. As an immigrant to the US this baffles me, but my US-native family members shrug l…

If it's all-way stop there will often be a small placard below the stop sign. If there's no placard there then (usually) cross traffic doesn't stop. Sometimes there's a placard that says "two-way" stop or one that says "cross traffic does not stop", but that's not as common in my experience.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#805

Post by sokoloff »

deergomoo wrote: post #787

This is an opinion almost certainly based more in emotion than logic, but I don't think I could trust any sort of fully autonomous driving system that didn't involve communication with transmitters along the road itself (like a glideslope and localiser for aircraft approaches) and with other cars on the road. Motorway driving sure, there it's closer to fancy cruise control. But around town, no thank you. I regularly…

> didn't involve communication with transmitters along the road itself (like a glideslope and localiser for aircraft approaches) and with other cars on the road

There will be a large number of non-participating vehicles on the road for at least another 50 years. (The average age of a car in the US is a little over 12 years and rising. I doubt we'll see a comms-based standard emerge and be required equipment on new cars for at least another 20 years.)

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#806

Post by crazygringo »

alexjplant wrote: post #216

> The collision happened because the sun was in the Tesla driver's eyes, so the Tesla driver was not charged, said Raul Garcia, public information officer for the department. Am I missing something or is this the gross miscarriage of justice that it sounds like? The driver could afford a $40k vehicle but not $20 polarized shades from Amazon? Negligence is negligence.

I'm genuinely not sure what the answer is.

When you're driving directly in the direction of a setting sun, polarized sunglasses won't help you at all. That's what sun visors are for, but they won't always work if you're short, and can block too much of the environment if you're too tall.

The only truly safe answer is really to pull to the side of the road and wait for the sun to set. But in my life I've never seen anybody do that ever, and it would absolutely wreck traffic with little jams all over the city that would cascade.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#807

Post by sokoloff »

tverbeure wrote: post #784
rootusrootus wrote: post #518

I'm on my second free FSD trial, just started for me today. Gave it another shot, and it seems largely similar to the last free trial they gave. Fun party trick, surprisingly good, right up until it's not. A hallmark of AI everywhere, is how great it is and just how abruptly and catastrophically it fails occasionally. Please, if you're going to try it, keep both hands on the wheel and your foot ready for the brake. W…

I just gave it another try after my last failed attempt. ( https://tomverbeure.github.io/2024/05/20/Tesla-FSD-First-and... ) I still find it shockingly bad, especially in the way it reacts, or doesn’t, to the way things change around the car (think a car on the left in front of you who switches on indicators to merge in front of you) or the way it makes the most random lane changing decisions and changes it’s mind in…

> (think a car on the left in front of you who switches on indicators to merge in front of you)

That car is signaling an intention to merge into your lane once it is safe for them to do so. What does the Tesla do (or not do) in this case that's bad?

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#808

Post by lotsofpulp »

bink wrote: post #802
lotsofpulp wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also went into car shopping with that opinion, but the options are bleak in terms of other carmakers' software. For some reason, if you want basic software features of a Tesla, the other carmakers want an extra $20k+ (and still don't have some). A big example is why do the other carmakers not yet offer camera recording on their cars? They are all using cameras all around, but only Tesla makes it available to you in…

Rivian also allows recording drives to an SSD. They also just released a feature where you can view the cameras while it's parked. I'm kinda surprised other manufacturers aren't allowing that.

Rivians start at $30k more than Teslas, and while they may be nice, they don’t have the track record yet that Tesla does, and there is a risk the company goes bust since it is currently losing a lot of money.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#809

Post by Flameancer »

1f60c wrote: post #738
TheAlchemist wrote: post #558

Tesla released a promotional video in 2016 saying that with FSD a human driver is not necessary and that "The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons". The video was staged as we've learned in 2022. 2016 folks... Even with today's FSD which is several orders of magnitude better than the one in the video, you would still probably have a serious accident within a week (and I'm being generous here) i…

AFAIK the owner's manual says you have to keep your hands on the wheel and be ready to take over at all times, but Elon Musk and co. love to pretend otherwise.

This part doesn’t seem to be common knowledge. I don’t own a Tesla but I have been a few. From my understanding the feature as always said it was in beta and that it still required that you have your hands on the wheel.

I like the idea of FSD, but I think we should have a serious talk about how the safety implications of making this more broadly available and also compatibility with making a mesh network so FSD vehicles can communicate. I’m not well versed in the tech but I feel like it would be safer if you have like say have more cars on the road that can communicate and making decisions together than separate cars existing in a vacuum having to make a decision.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#810

Post by 650REDHAIR »

rootusrootus wrote: post #518

I'm on my second free FSD trial, just started for me today. Gave it another shot, and it seems largely similar to the last free trial they gave. Fun party trick, surprisingly good, right up until it's not. A hallmark of AI everywhere, is how great it is and just how abruptly and catastrophically it fails occasionally. Please, if you're going to try it, keep both hands on the wheel and your foot ready for the brake. W…

This was my experience as well. It tried to drive us (me, my wife, and my FIL) into a tree on a gentle low speed uphill turn and I’ll never trust it again.
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