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Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

reuters.com

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Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#801

Post by IOT_Apprentice »

lelanthran wrote: post #651
shprd wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the combatants holding those devices were at war, no? The attack wasn't as targeted as you seem to think. It also hit health workers and bystanders. Approx half the casualties are civilians (including children). According to Humans rights watch: https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/09/18/lebanon-exploding-pagers... > Thousands of pagers simultaneously exploded across Lebanon and parts of Syria on September 17, 2024, r…

> Approx half the casualties are civilians Citation needed for that. None of the news reports, even the heavily biased ones, have reported mass civilian casualties.

[flagged]

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#802

Post by HDThoreaun »

ngcazz wrote: post #725
bushbaba wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the flip side. Hamas promised to continue slaughtering Israeli Arabs, Jews, and Christians until they are all dead. Hezbollah has launched rockets into northern Israel for a year…with 100k+ Israelis forced to relocate south. What exactly other option does Israel had. Peace talks didn’t go anywhere for last few decades

Even if Hamas hadn't eliminated the anti-semitic language from their charter in 2007, that argument would require one to accept that preventatively mass murdering whole families and generations of children is a moral means of dealing with a political opponent. Options? Israel (the people anyway) has always had the option of finally dropping the ethno-nationalism and apartheid of their foundational principles, and acc…

[flagged]

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#803

Post by EasyMark »

runarberg wrote: post #550
jnwatson wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As attacks go, this is far more targeted than most dropped bombs. The purpose is to disable the communication infrastructure. That's a valid military target. To be clear, I'm not saying this is a good thing. It does seem to fit within the rules of war though.

The rules of war prohibit planting explosive in objects which are likely to be picked up by civilians. The rules of war also discourages fighting in civilian areas. Members of an enemy organization are not automatically valid military targets according to the rules of war. Especially when they are just going about their civilian lives far away from the battlefield. This is attack consistent with terrorist tactics, no…

How likely are Hezbollah terrorists to hand over their communications devices to regular citizens? I’d say it’s not a very likely scenario. Obviously there will be some cases where people are adjacent who are innocent, but the same is the case when dropping bombs and shooting up a building where there at with a machine gun.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#804

Post by RickJWagner »

abalone wrote: post #634
pdabbadabba wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it should not be considered terrorism to the extent that the attack targeted legitimate military targets during a time of war — broadly speaking, combatants and other parts of the organization that affect its ability to wage war. Terrorism, at least least in my view, is an attack that either intentionally targets civilians or is truly indiscriminate, and is aimed at producing political cha age by causing fear…

According to the LA Times these devices are “not usually used by fighters, but by ambulance and civil defense crews and administrators affiliated with Hezbollah. The devices are unrestricted and can be sold to anyone, and as such are used by other organizations in areas of poor signal.” [1] There is no question if an enemy set off hundreds of bombs in American ambulances we would recognize it as a mass terrorist atta…

LA Times notably does not report that Hezbollah has been recognized as a terrorist organization for many years by the US government. That fact alone makes their reporting suspect, IMHO.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#805

Post by TheAlchemist »

Arch485 wrote: post #192

I'm genuinely curious: how is this not considered terrorism on Israel's part? (or is it considered terrorism?) From a tactical standpoint, this is very similar, and the only big difference I see is that this is technologically more advanced/more complex than just planting a bomb or something. If it's not terrorism, what is the differentiating factor(s)? *side note: I'm quite sure other western countries have used tac…

First - from the 'technical' point of view - I can't wait to read books / documentaries about how it was all prepared etc. Fascinating.

I can't really wrap my head around it neither, is it terrorism or not ?

On one hand it sure is - we don't know if it was the main goal, but it sure did instil fear and terror. Even in people that have nothing to do with the region.

On the other hand, it's pretty much as targeted as it gets. From what we know, the explosives were really small, installed in devices specifically used by their targets. I have hard time imagining any other way one could eliminate or incapacitate thousands of legimitate (in their view at least) targets without firing a single bullet and with so few other casualties (and yes, of course even a single one is too much).

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#806

Post by Terr_ »

abalone wrote: post #634
pdabbadabba wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it should not be considered terrorism to the extent that the attack targeted legitimate military targets during a time of war — broadly speaking, combatants and other parts of the organization that affect its ability to wage war. Terrorism, at least least in my view, is an attack that either intentionally targets civilians or is truly indiscriminate, and is aimed at producing political cha age by causing fear…

According to the LA Times these devices are “not usually used by fighters, but by ambulance and civil defense crews and administrators affiliated with Hezbollah. The devices are unrestricted and can be sold to anyone, and as such are used by other organizations in areas of poor signal.” [1] There is no question if an enemy set off hundreds of bombs in American ambulances we would recognize it as a mass terrorist atta…

Hold up, that skips over the crucial issue of triggering-logic.

It's reasonable to guess that these devices were made to only explode after a very unique code is is received, and/or only when traffic came over a radio channel known to be used by Hezbollah.

In contrast, an uninvolved civilian medical doctor buying a booby-trapped pager secondhand shouldn't be at significant risk, since before carrying the pager around all day they'll first configure it to use their hospital's radio network, which should only be broadcasting innocuous hospital messages.

> There is no question if an enemy set off hundreds of bombs in American ambulances we would recognize it as a mass terrorist attack.

However if those bombs were only triggered by the code "Immediate Mobilization" broadcast over a CIA/DIA pager network, then the real question would become why so many ambulance staff were holding down a second secret job as spies and soldiers.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#807

Post by anigbrowl »

ineedasername wrote: post #740
anigbrowl wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so sure. It certainly shook Hezbollah and no doubt some of the dead or seriously injured held sufficiently important jobs within the organization to cause problems. On the other hand you now have a few thousand people who suffered unpleasant but not debilitating injuries who are now sadder, wiser, and very very pissed off. My impression is that many of those attacked could have been middle managers or mid-ran…

I see it a bit differently, or at least I see a different possibility. Most of the injured were pager-owning Hezbollah members who were already pissed off in a way that has religious & ideological foundations unlikely to be changed regardless of events. The general populace might go either way, angry at the attack and/or angry at the Hezbollah members for attacking a much more powerful enemy and bringing the violence…

I don't want to go on a pdf hunt for the one perfect paper now, but years of social science and historical reading inclines me to believe that external attacks almost always unify rather than divide a population.

Consider how Gaza has been pounded mercilessly for most of a year now, with the burden falling mainly on civilians, but they're not turning on Hamas.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#808

Post by anigbrowl »

djohnston wrote: post #734
anigbrowl wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own walkie talkies. So does any large retail store in the US, they're given to staff to communicate. Every film set with more than 10 crew members uses them. I could go on. I'm amazed people come to a web community about technology to broadcast such ignorance.

Did you buy your walkie talkie in a batch shipment with Hezbollah?

No, and HN is not the place for such dumb snark. Maybe you'd be happier on Titter or Reddit.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#809

Post by stogot »

jrflowers wrote: post #728
pdabbadabba wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that if it is confirmed that these are primarily used by civilian ambulance crews, that would make a big difference. Of course, this isn't what the LA Times actually reported, but I'm not sure what "civil defense crews and administrators affiliated with Hezbollah" actually means on the ground.

> Of course, this isn't what the LA Times actually reported This is a good point. The LA Times does not report incidents involving ambulances other than in the first half of the sentence that you quoted: >They are not usually used by fighters, but by ambulance and civil defense crews and administrators affiliated with Hezbollah. And the report of a video of an ambulance exploding > Video from a funeral ceremony in th…

So someone extrapolated one video to making an “usually” argument? Without a source or data this is poor journalism

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#810

Post by stogot »

pvaldes wrote: post #557
edanm wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Israel and Hezbollah are at war, and these are (reportedly) devices used by Hezbollah operatives. A war Hezbollah declared, btw.

[flagged]

Every? Source? Did they all explode?
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