Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why I Left Rust

jntrnr.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

801–810 of 880 posts

Re: Why I Left Rust

#801

Post by b112 »

noisy_boy wrote: post #785
b112 wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This incident in particular doesn't prove that Rust has more zealots. At no point did I claim it did. If you're already unfriendly towards the Rust community Where did I state this? It seems you are touchy on this front. And it seems as if saying that the rust community has some zealots, upsets you. Most other dev languages don't even have "communities".

> Rust has more zealots, than every other language combined. > And it seems as if saying that the rust community has some zealots, upsets you. First saying "more than every other language combined" and then changing tone to say "some" is disingenuous. And please don't try to technically argue that the former doesn't have to more then the latter - the underlying insinuation is pretty obvious.

Had I wanted to say rust was only filled with zealots, I would have said so, instead of differentiating advocate from zealot.

Further, most languages barely have any advocates, let alone zealots. Rust is a massive outlier here.

My statement is accurate, valid, makes sense, and is predicated upon observation.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#802

Post by notmypenguin »

scns wrote: post #365
twic wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, lots of people high up in Rust have a background in JavaScript, where drama is common, which I believe has helped normalise it as a mode of social interaction.

Drama is common in human Comunnities.

Drama is actually the name of a town in Greece

Re: Why I Left Rust

#803

Post by exadeci »

capableweb wrote: post #107
ummonk wrote: post #30

For more context, post from the previously invited keynote speaker about what happened: https://thephd.dev/i-am-no-longer-speaking-at-rustconf-2023

So now there are two stories from the one of the sides, is there any stories from the other sides? Namely, from the people who felt so "uncomfortable" about a technical topic that they had to uninvite a keynote speaker? As things stand, this whole things smells very weird, so weird I almost cannot believe what happened, so would be most interesting to hear what the other side has to say.

His blog is call The pasture and has a bunch of sheep looking characters, could it be that people got uncomfortable about his furry implications maybe?

Re: Why I Left Rust

#804

Post by rtpg »

atoav wrote: post #796
rtpg wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the strong technical disagreement was not brought up the many times it could have! Instead the stick was stuck in the bike wheels way after the bike was moving forward at a decent speed. Though “downgrading keynote to talk” is obviously not the same as an outright disinvite, the fact that the original invitee asked explicitly about this content being pre-RFC (giving rust leadership the out to reso…

What I don't get here is the following. No matter how egalitarian you organize such a conference, doesn't it make sense that the organizers get the last say in what the keynote looks like? They have an rough overview over all contributions and they can decide if what you contribute is best suited to be a keynote. Of course that gives them a certain level of power of the discourse, but what is the alternative? Communi…

In this specific instance, there was a vote to have this keynote. Then somebody seems to have circumvented this process to get the keynote downgraded (leading to the OP resigning, as they had been behind the initial vote!)

There was somebody who circumvented the intended governance structures to make this happen, and this is probably where the frustration and this blog post come from.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#805

Post by notmypenguin »

monkeywork wrote: post #315
quotemstr wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've deprived a whole generation of the rhetorical tools for healthy, impersonal and professional argument. It's no wonder that they've pressed this "stylized language of emotion and abuse" into service to fill the void: it's all they know.

curious - what tools were deprived to a whole generation?

Critical thinking skills independently from the subjects they may arise from. It’s not a trendy topic of argument, but I will also propose that modern English speakers have no notion of their own language without a prerequisite in Latin, or you get folks like the person trying to tell me my subscription date started at some arbitrary date unrelated to the specific date I signed under.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#806

Post by notmypenguin »

busterarm wrote: post #666
quotemstr wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've deprived a whole generation of the rhetorical tools for healthy, impersonal and professional argument. It's no wonder that they've pressed this "stylized language of emotion and abuse" into service to fill the void: it's all they know.

Previous recent generations also had most nations sending large groups of their men off to kill other nations' men for insufficient reasons. As a result of the current geopolitics, we don't have the self-awareness to realize that minor conflicts are minor conflicts and that the absolute best place to be and thing to be doing is spending time at home with your loved ones. We certainly shouldn't be carrying out PR stra…

War and nationalism haven’t ceased, nor have the emotional levers you speak of gone away, what has happened is that folks are comfortable behaving differently online than they would face to face

Re: Why I Left Rust

#807

Post by notmypenguin »

wadd1e wrote: post #765
marcosdumay wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means that, like everything that started at Mozilla, Rust will have some uncomfortable growth phase and then mature at some group that may or may not be the original one. We can expect some mildly bad decisions on the language evolution. But it's very unlikely that this will open a niche for another language to replace Rust.

Only thing I can really see is mabye go/zig gaining more adoption but I don't think we're even close to that point yet, what's worrying is even discussing something like this happening in the first place. Ideally this sort of thing shouldn't even cross our minds.

Go is garbage collected so it’s unsuitable for the domain. Rust isn’t going away, no matter how many social snafus the steerage folks create.

I wish they would lay off the power tripper stuff, but that’s what you get at this level/size. Coming from where it’s coming from, it’s arguably going to be hammering itself out for awhile yet, while the world is already using it just fine… you may see splintered community though

Re: Why I Left Rust

#808

Post by notmypenguin »

riskable wrote: post #559
phpisthebest wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the very beginning Rust was a political movement first, and a programming lang second. People seemed to have forgotten some of the early events from years ago when Rust was less popular. >>The Rust project needs to stamp this out before it begins to fester It has been there since the formation of the Lang, it is built into the DNA of the community. people that want technical merits to shine are the ones trying t…

No, no. Groups that have endless infighting/debates are the ones that evolve, stick around, and gain support. It's the groups that are cock-sure about everything with everyone falling in line behind the leadership that end up stagnating and ultimately end up being replaced with something better (often with bitter or explosive endings). In the world of technology, fundamental tech like programming languages can persis…

No mention of the fact that you cherry picked virtual machine languages, dynamic interpreted languages that don’t even exist without a garbage collector, a system memory allocator, and more, all written in C,C++, or Rust?

Re: Why I Left Rust

#809

Post by encody »

Everyone involved seems... petty and immature at worst, overly sensitive at best.

Conference organizers sucked at communication, both internally and with the speaker.

But the speaker doesn't take the affront in stride, instead choosing to make a stink on Twitter, complain, swear about a ruined weekend, and call people racist. Not the kind of professionalism I would expect from a prospective keynote speaker.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#810

Post by depr »

pdimitar wrote: post #452
depr wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is saying there weren't any black speakers. Sure we can say how that should grow "organically", as some other poster did. But what if year in year out it doesn't happen? Maybe there aren't any black people in the Rust community and if they stepped forward with some good talks they would just be invited? Or maybe the situation is a little more complicated. On the one hand you have your "diversity enforcement policy…

> But what if year in year out it doesn't happen? Then the intersection between "Black people" and "people willing to speak on a Rust conference" is extremely small and nothing can be done about it. Well, nothing that's not already being done I mean: like encourage everyone to be in these circles because nobody is going to show you the door for doing so, and nobody is going to discriminate you. What else should one p…

>Then the intersection between "Black people" and "people willing to speak on a Rust conference" is extremely small and nothing can be done about it.

Perhaps. That is an explanation that fits your worldview. But whether it is true is not so easily determined.

>I've never in my life discriminated anyone on any race or gender grounds and I also don't plan to ever do so. But constantly guilt-tripping whites that they should "fight for more representation" is not how you win them over for your cause. You only alienate them.

In your view _you_ and many other white people have never discriminated anyone and you have never witnessed it and therefore there is no racism. And that might very well be true (except for the last part, racism is obviously still out there).

But let's imagine a country with people living in it. Some can afford to go to university and some are poor and cannot. Now the university is not to blame for their lack of funds. They can truthfully claim that nobody who has sufficient means will be turned away. Also the majority of those poor people are white. The university simply says, we are not discriminating against any whites, they simply don't have any money! And this is also true. But they could also offer some scholarship which would greatly benefit some people who can't afford to go to university.

It seems you and parent are interpreting someone saying, there aren't any black people in your conferences and you should take a look at that, as saying: there aren't any black people and you are to blame for this and you are racist. Maybe some are actually saying this. But this (people being racist) doesn't need to be the case and I hope my example sheds some light on this. This is what I meant with the situation can might be complicated.

I think indeed as you said we don't need to blame people so much. Instead we can try to look beyond blame, and beyond our own perspective, and see that even without us being racist or doing anything wrong, there can be some injustice and the situation can be improved. Then if we throw our hands up and say well we ain't the government that is one thing, but being against someone else's initiative that may improve the situation is another.

Post reply on HN