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Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

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Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#801

Post by zzbzq »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #355
jokoon wrote: post #329

I'm still very skeptical how the measures will take into effect if they ever happen. In france the yellow vests protest was caused by a planned carbon tax increase on gas. Car dependent citizens rioted. A carbon tax will reduce the living standard of everyone, and it will take time for society to readjust. I really think the economy will tank and take a lot of time to adjust to a green economy, as it's not only elect…

> Only 12% of ROAD TRANSPORT emits co2. So to be clear, electric cars are nice, but they're solving almost nothing. I just want to add, that so many people buy in to the idea that the solution to gas powered cars is electric cars. But I feel like the significantly climate friendlier solution is bicycles and trains. The latter requires us to really go outside of our comfort zones (in the USA anyway) and we just don't…

Bicycle and trains are an "ideal solution" that works for abandoning this Save File and starting a New Game. Since we're building on top of already existing society, in the U.S. it's not tenable. We'd need to rebuild 98% of what's already been built around cars, in order to support populations living in walkable cities getting around by train. And obviously, re-building that much infrastructure would require counterproductive amounts of energy.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#803

Post by derbOac »

jpfed wrote: post #714
jsonne wrote: post #360

If there is anything covid has taught me its that collective action isn't something we can rely on and is a lot more wishful thinking about the state of humanity rather than a sober look at the reality. Governments need to tax CO2 emissions on the business side and pour the money into carbon capture technology in the private space through investment and perhaps some sort of bounty program (you get $x for each ton you…

As a programmer, I empathize with the impulse to go with the elegant, unified solution of carbon taxes. The problem is that everybody gets hurt, in at least a short-term sense, by a carbon tax. And yes, a lot of people will understand that this is a necessary pain. But all the worst carbon offenders that might campaign against a climate policy would get hurt by the same thing at the same time, so they would provide a…

Ecologically sustainable changes will happen when it's cheap and/or comfortable to do, period.

Increasing the costs of carbon-based choices will just lead to civil unrest. I think this is already part of where recent problems in the US are coming from.

Carbon taxes and similar solutions implicitly assume that the individual making the carbon-positive choice is the one who should bear the cost. I feel a bit like it's you have decades of individuals and groups insulating themselves from real costs, through deception and ignorance, and then us deciding to pass those costs onto those who can't or don't want it anyway. Socialized risk, capitalized gain all over again.

You might say that nature is going to extract those costs one way or another, but this is one case where I think the moral responsibility is in spreading those costs out in ways that can be borne realistically.

Better for the average person worldwide to make the sustainable choices cheaper rather than increase the costs of the unsustainable choices, because then that's implicitly just increasing costs for everything in many situations.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#804

Post by systemvoltage »

mtooth wrote: post #759
merpnderp wrote: post #720

If anyone actually believed it was "code red for humanity" they'd be pushing nuclear power. There is zero chance of moving off carbon energy sources without causing catastrophic mayhem, unless we use massive amounts of nuclear. For instance, the last 4 years my state has averaged 37% production of total possible installed wind generation capacity. This is a very windy state which is in the top 2 for installed wind ca…

Agreed - if the situation is as dire as presented then nuclear fission is the only clear solution today for baseload power. All the rebuttals I usually read seem to present hypothetical alternatives that may very well come to fruition but we have nuclear as a well-tested and known solution to the problem ready for us to begin using today should we simply decide to act.

Meanwhile California is busy decommissioning Diablo plant: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo_Canyon_Power_Plant

I don’t see a path forward without Nuclear. Europe and China has done better in this area than US. There is a bunch of fear mongering in liberal California circles about Nuclear. Well informed and technically minded people I know in Bay Area all support Nuclear power.

Frankly the media has done an awful job of fear mongering with the term “Nuclear” and “Radiation”.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#805

Post by thehappypm »

robinsoh wrote: post #646
bko wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe it or not, western countries have reduced carbon emissions over the last ~15 years, in both absolute and per capita terms (despite a growing population). The only countries that are growing their carbon emissions are developing countries; mainly China, India and Russia. China is particularly troubling since they make up 28% of all emissions (US is 15%) and they have both a growing population and growing emiss…

> Believe it or not, western countries have reduced carbon emissions over the last ~15 years, in both absolute and per capita terms (despite a growing population). The only countries that are growing their carbon emissions are developing countries; mainly China, India and Russia. USA: 15.50 metric tons (2016) India: 1.82 metric tons (2016) Source: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.PC?location... One Am…

Per-capita is irrelevant. Total CO2 is the problem. The US is on the right trajectory, and all signs point towards de-carbonization intensifying with technology maturing as we speak (EVs, offshore wind, solar price plummeting, new homes being better insulated + heat pumps).

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#806

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #710

The good (and bad) news is this will solve itself: if we don't act, humanity will die off substantially and technologically regress. Without dense and easily extractible energy source like hydrocarbons we're unlikely to achieve this level of technology again, and famine, war, and disease will take their natural courses when we can't fertilize our crops like we have in the past, are fighting new weather patterns, and…

[deleted]

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#807

Post by inglor_cz »

f6v wrote: post #546
pmorici wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t Musk the climate change guy you are looking for. He’s done more to advance the cause of sustainable energy than perhaps anyone.

A "climate change guy" would be someone who gets everyone to use a train or a bus, not a premium sedan.

Premium sedans are much better sell to the richer stratum of the society, though.

And once you hook them, your chances of a major breakthrough are much better.

All the world-changing technical developments had to be marketed to the rich people first. Railway, electricity, airplanes, computers.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#808

Post by mikestew »

coalslaw wrote: post #692
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We will never stop loving those things Did we just tax tobacco? People loved tobacco. At some point, with the right information (e.g media not bought by big business), we can realize that things that are bad for us are just bad for us. We can avoid telling us that and have someone take money from our wallet to prevent us from buying the things that kill us, but why not just better inform ourselves about the way we'r…

I'm not sure tobacco is a good comparison here. Tobacco was a relatively easy thing to tax/restrict/ban as it serves no real purpose beyond individual enjoyment.

And about the time governments started taxing the shit out of tobacco is also about the time tobacco use was starting to become quite unfashionable. Why would I or my friends care about not being able to smoke in a bar if we find smoky bars annoying? Hypothetically try passing such taxes in the 60s, see how far that would have gotten.

Point being: carbon tax? That hits everyone to some extent, and arguably hits those least likely to care about climate change the most.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#809

Post by GordonS »

jsonne wrote: post #360

If there is anything covid has taught me its that collective action isn't something we can rely on and is a lot more wishful thinking about the state of humanity rather than a sober look at the reality. Governments need to tax CO2 emissions on the business side and pour the money into carbon capture technology in the private space through investment and perhaps some sort of bounty program (you get $x for each ton you…

> collective action isn't something we can rely on and is a lot more wishful thinking about the state of humanity rather than a sober look at the reality. Governments need to tax CO2 emissions

I fully agree, but if history has taught me anything about Western politics, it's that power and money reign supreme. The term of politicians only lasts a few years, and many will do everything they can to feather their cap during that time, doing the bidding of big business. And the top priority for many is to stay in power - changes to help the climate are expensive, and indeed getting more expensive the longer we delay, so few have what it takes to be bold and put policies in place that may be unpopular with a large segment of their constituents.

And then there is the economic arms race that is characteristic of our modern, divided world. Countries don't want to make hard decisions, because they know some others won't.

Honestly, it looks very, very grim. To have any hope of mitigating what's going to come, we need massive global action that is going to be to the short to medium-term detriment of many politicians, corporations, lobbying groups, and of course regular citizens too. I strongly hope I'm wrong, but I just can't see any future where any of that happens :(

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#810

Post by thehappypm »

triceratops wrote: post #643
blhack wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you make the major polluters pay the tax?

I don't understand the question.

China is the largest CO2 producer in the world and is growing. The US is second but our emissions are actually decreasing and likely to continue decreasing. Taxing Western companies may reduce the West's carbon footprint but hardly helps the overall picture while being essentially austerity.
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