Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home • Hacker News Board

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#801

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:12 AM UTC

cjohnson318 wrote: post #725

acituan wrote: post #721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Men are not doing as well as women in school. Schools are not performing as well for men as they do for women. I'm not just playing with words; it is really important to frame the share of responsibility correctly. It is the school's job to educate the kid, not kid's job to compensate for the dysfunctions of an education system. I'll generalize because I don't have any detailed data; anyone from the front-line educ…

Men run most governments. Men own most companies. Men dominate the higher levels of corporations. Most engineers, doctors, lawyers, investors, and other highly paid professionals are men. Men simply own more capital than women, by a huge margin. It looks like schools are performing better for men than women.

You do understand there’s lag between school outcomes and mid-career adults, yes?

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#802

Post by hebrox » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:15 AM UTC

developer93 wrote: post #775

twh270 wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. I've had many conversations about this topic with my son (and on occasion some of his friends -- both male and female), since he was in middle school (a decade ago). They're well aware of how men are portrayed versus women. We've transitioned from "A women's place is in the home (barefoot, pregnant, and cooking a delicious meal for her husband)" to "A woman's place is whatever she wants, and men are the reason f…

Well, decades ago, men did run the world, to all intents and purposes. They're still in most positions of power (politics ceos etc), most things are designed by men, etc. This doesn't mean that it's the fault of every single man, any more than as a Brit who benefits from a legacy of empire that I'm personally responsible for whatever massacres. You can be aware of it without taking the blame.

There is a subtle difference between "men did run the world" and "women didn't run the world". The first one skips over all the men that also didn't run the world.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

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Post by courtf » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:16 AM UTC

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #752

Mirioron wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Video games, movies, books, and other such entertainment. I genuinely believe that this is what they're looking forward to.

Toss programming in, and you've listed off about all of the best things humanity's ever offered to date.

Definitely a good list, but I'd add a few more that just aren't around as much anymore. Things like spear-hunting mega fauna, traveling with the great herds and just enjoying the endless bounty of nature. The world was once much wilder and more abundant with major species. Lions in Europe etc. But yeah, we had so much fun chasing those critters around, we drove a lot of them to extinction and now must satisfy ourselves with video games to sublimate some of our hunter-gatherers instincts.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#804

Post by LoveMortuus » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:17 AM UTC

TrispusAttucks wrote: post #673

flippinburgers wrote: post #511

Men are not doing as well as women in school. If you look in the wrong places on the internet, media, or daily life, all you see is negativity towards masculinity. In addition, there doesn't appear to be any broad social system that is geared towards supporting men. The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. This all feels like the perfect storm and there are plenty of people who act like "men…

At a recent scholarship awards ceremony I attended the woman gathered much more scholarships than the men. Of course they probably very well deserved it. However there were many women-only scholarships that I am assuming were setup to increase college admissions of women. Which is of course also perfectly okay. However, there is a huge growing gender gap [1] in college admissions that favors women. If an equality pro…

Aren't women-only projects and things inherently discriminatory, since it disallows participation or use based on gender?

I know that whenever I've seen women only projects I did feel a sting in my heart, because what if I wanted to participate?

The only way to be able to participate would be to abandon manhood and transition into womanhood...

Where as there are no 'men-only' projects and things. Not that there should be. We all should have the freedom to whatever we desire (as long as it's not hurting others of course).

Having doors closed to me just because of the factors over which I have no control is very painful and maybe I've been exposed to that more due to having stunted growth and being born with cleft lip. Luckily I can speak without any troubles which is quite uncommon. But because my mustache does grow around where the stitching is, it's still somewhat noticeable and due to the nose also being affected I've also received my share of beating and being called a goblin in schools.

I've been without a goal for most of my life, and have thus tried to take my life multiple times, but after reading about finance I've decided to work and invest as much as I can, so that I can reach a point where I can live from the passive income so that I'll finally have peace (and in a way be able to reduce my interactions with the society to the bare minimum).

((Please don't tell me that my goal isn't achievable because I already get enough of that from my father and pretty much anyone I talk to about finances, and it's really disheartening...))

Interestingly enough, elder people were always the most kind to me, maybe because they judge less by the looks or because many mistook me for a woman. (Or maybe they just don't see as well and thought that I was a kid)

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#805

Post by mutedpossibly » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:22 AM UTC

username90 wrote: post #587

jdgoesmarching wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a lot of validity to the social struggles of men in a lot of online discourse, but to say “society“ punishes us for not being women flies in the face of almost every useful metric of socioeconomic success. Women did not create the society that is hurting men emotionally and economically. Buying into that victim complex is a distraction from your own self-development and healing.

Most kids spends their first 15 years mostly surrounded by women. Their doctors, their kinder garden teachers, their school teachers etc. Almost every authority figure is a woman there. If those boys have problem I feel it is ok to say that it is mostly those grownups fault, and they happen to be mostly women.

The absence of men in these fields is part of the problem, as you say! However, the absence of men in these fields are by choice. To place the blame on only those that are present in raising everyones children and ignore the fact that most men choose not to be part in this hugely important societal task is (imo) wrong.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#806

Post by grammarnazzzi » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:22 AM UTC

developer93 wrote: post #770

grammarnazzzi wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Women did not create the society that is hurting men emotionally and economically The extreme elements of 3rd wave feminism has influcenced society in ways that unfairly and negatively impact boys. Specifically the concept of "toxic masculinity". Toxic people are toxic. Toxic behaviors are toxic. Toxic people should be shamed and toxic behaviors should be discouraged. Boys should not be shamed for being masculine,…

This is not what toxic masculinity means. It's not saying masculinity is toxic, toxic is a qualifier not a description. It's used to talk about those attitudes which are ascribed by some people to be super masculine, but actually are just unhealthy (like hyper aggression, or the idea, ironically, that men shouldn't ask for help or complain about anything)

The term "toxic masculinity" creates a subliminal negative association between "male" and "toxicity".

Although you can rationalize the association away, it still exists and influences listeners. It's marketing against men.

If you really wanted to address issues with hyper-agression, you would use the term "hyper-agression", which is gender-neutral.

If you really wanted to address the consequence of not asking for help or compaining, you would perhaps use the term "stoicism", which is gender-neutral.

If you really wanted to address people overly affected by irrational fears, you would use the term "neuroticism", rather than "toxic femininity"

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#807

Post by grammarnazzzi » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:31 AM UTC

hellbannedguy wrote: post #636

grammarnazzzi wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not leading a meaningful life inevitably leads to depression. That's not to say that a very small few people may somehow find meaning exclusively playing video games. However most people will eventually suffer from lack of self-esteam, low status and shame.

Exactly what is a meaningful life anymore, especially in America? If you are looking for self-esteem through your job--for most of us those days are gone. (I know way to many former Programers who aged out of the industry way to early, and gave up. Way to many are homeless. My point is don't expect too much psychological satisfaction from a job that barely covers the rent, has no real pension, and lousy medical. My f…

> Exactly what is a meaningful life anymore, especially in America?

That's a personal and existental question. What are your principles? What would you like people to say about you at your funeral?

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#808

Post by chii » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:36 AM UTC

lkrubner wrote: post #715

What should strong, stupid men do? Male participation in the economy peaked in the 1950s. It began to decline as the USA automated agriculture. Millions of years of evolution gave us some men who are very strong, but very stupid. There used to be an abundance of jobs for such men. Agriculture, in particular, provided endless jobs for such people. Some of these jobs paid surprisingly well. When I was very young, I spe…

> Millions of years of evolution gave us some men who are very strong, but very stupid.

Humans are very adaptable - millions of years of evolution has made human very smart and capable of adapting to large variety of changing circumstances.

> create a positive vision for stupid people

So it's the responsibility of society to educate them into something useful, but it's also partially their own responsibility to learn and become less "stupid" - aka, adapt.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#809

Post by lordnacho » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:42 AM UTC

teawrecks wrote: post #307

belorn wrote: post #269

What are the things that motivates them, and what do they themselves want to do in life? I ask this because much of the undertone in the article and in this thread is about the failure of meeting the gender role expectations that are put on young men. Do they have a job and a car? Have they studied hard so they can get a good job in order to support a wife and kid? Culture in the last several decades have hammered do…

When I was probably 18 I asked a friend/coworker who was going to community college what they wanted to do after college and they just didn't know. I couldn't wrap my head around that. As far back as I can remember, I always had an answer when an adult asked me "what I want to be when I grow up". It wasn't always a coherent answer, but I always knew what stuff I found interesting. I don't know why it's different for…

As an adult, one of the main observations about education is how little it showed me about what jobs are out there.

People pick degrees based on the advice of counselors who seem to know of 8 kinds of job, and half of them are not something you can advise a kid in a striving high school to follow (binman, factory worker, etc) .

It's actually nuts how people will do an internship and then decide this is the thing they want to do. Or they get a visit from someone at school and now they're gonna be an author.

If there's one thing we need in society, it's experiential information about jobs.

For instance I've known many people who went into management consulting. None of them think it has any value. If I was a kid I'd want to know that.

Accountants come across many types of business and are employable in many types of firms. The job is closer to a lawyer than many people expect, esp irl to tax. Your math degree is minimally useful.

Recruiters talk to people all day and are paid in proportion to the salary of the placed person.

Anyway those are just jobs that I don't do, and I know a tiny bit about them through contact with real world people.

Kids need these contacts.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#810

Post by grammarnazzzi » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:44 AM UTC

random314 wrote: post #758

grammarnazzzi wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not leading a meaningful life inevitably leads to depression. That's not to say that a very small few people may somehow find meaning exclusively playing video games. However most people will eventually suffer from lack of self-esteam, low status and shame.

This gives rise to 2 questions 1. Do you mean a meaningful life from the gamers perspective or from the perspective of outsiders? 2. If the issue is lack of self-esteem etc. Wouldn't it be better to focus on mental health instead of employment? Once again, I was interested in talking about gamers who are happy with their situation.

Meaningful to one's self and principles. In the sense that Viktor Frankl wrote about in "Man's Search for Meaning." Wherein he describes the survivors of the nazi concentration camps were the prisoners who had something personally meaningful to live for. People thrive if they have meaning in their lives.

If you can derive meaning from your career, that's great. Otherwise, family or contributing to society or whatever you think makes a difference in the world and is worth working toward.

Like everything, gaming is great in moderation, but the gamer who does nothing with their life but game is probably going to have some regrets on their deathbed.