The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire • Hacker News Board

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#801

Post by bo1024 » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 2:37 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #495

I find it really disconcerting how many people on Hacker News want a corporate entity to decide what information is deemed acceptable to know. Do you even know where that word came from? The irony is almost overwhelming. But I digress... The idea that banning certain information will somehow result in it disappearing has been shown repeatedly to not work. A cursory reading of history should make this clear. You canno…

The problem is YouTube's algorithm -- recommendations. If we accept the algorithm, then there is no middle ground: either you ban this content from the platform entirely, or watch misinformation spread wildly.

But there could be a middle ground in which the platform changes how its algorithm works. I think neither YouTube nor its detractors are considering this as a serious possibility, for some reason.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#802

Post by Vomzor » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 2:39 PM UTC

titanomachy wrote: post #471

Vomzor wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what your point is? As we seem to agree values change.

I'm not 100% sure either. I think maybe GP is suggesting that rather than being stalwart champions of free speech as you implied, boomers are just more racist and want to be free to say racist things. Fortunately for all of us, it's not the general population of millenials or boomers who decide what speech the government gets to prevent; it's experienced justices, who tend to take the constitution much more seriously…

> Do you think they just don't understand the constitution, or do they want it rewritten to allow this kind of law?

There is some talk about changing or repealing the first amendement. A good article about how this shift in values happened: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-cod...

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#803

Post by disgruntledphd2 » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 2:48 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #783

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #771

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that this isn't censorship, then I strongly encourage you to read Manufacturing Consent.

There is a difference between for-profit content and free speech.

Sorry, I'm not sure how this is a reply to my comment. Can you clarify?

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#804

Post by tim333 » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #495

I find it really disconcerting how many people on Hacker News want a corporate entity to decide what information is deemed acceptable to know. Do you even know where that word came from? The irony is almost overwhelming. But I digress... The idea that banning certain information will somehow result in it disappearing has been shown repeatedly to not work. A cursory reading of history should make this clear. You canno…

It's a free market. YouTube can host videos it wants to or not. Likewise you can get a $5 server and host what videos you want to or not. That's different from "decide what information is deemed acceptable to know."

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#805

Post by gnusty_gnurc » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 3:19 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #667

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m arguing about free expression and unpopular speech, not illegal speech.

Well, then, let's make lies illegal, if that's where you're drawing the line.

You realize how liable to abuse the idea of “truth” is in a tyrannical regime? Or even just fallible and misguided people?

Like, eugenicists in the 1920s would have a whole host of horrid “truths” they thought were scientifically supported at the time. Imagine the hurdles opposition would have in trying to voice their “factual truth.”

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#806

Post by cybert00th » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 3:38 PM UTC

YouTube is a technology company, and deciding what is and what isn't acceptable speech is not their prerogative - that's what constitutions and law courts are for.

Once they start down this censorship road there's no turning back until either all their users leave and they're forced to shut up shop or they end up as a defacto department of governments.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#807

Post by rbanffy » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 3:47 PM UTC

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #803

rbanffy wrote: post #783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between for-profit content and free speech.

Sorry, I'm not sure how this is a reply to my comment. Can you clarify?

The right to say something is not to be confused with the right to be paid to say something.

In fact, monetization creates a perverse incentive to prioritize financial gain over informing the public.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#808

Post by kill-procrustes » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #679

ceilingcorner wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really can’t think of anything more alien to the hacker ethos than, “A group of unknown people at a technology corporation should be the ultimate authority on what I’m allowed to say, read, or share with my friends.” Disinformation is indeed a difficult problem, but there are enough smart people in the world to figure it out without resorting to authoritarianism. We can do better.

The Hacker Ethos is to build your own media platform and stop whining about someone else’s (unless net neutrality is at play).

I'm pretty sure being critical of efforts to censor information is part of the hacker ethos ("information should be free").

I think this is actually why the Twitter approach ("some or all of this tweet is disputed") is a good way to go. You're providing more information—links to people who disagree—rather than hiding information.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#809

Post by pie_flavor » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #227

siliconc0w wrote: post #47

It is amazing to me that there are so many people, smart people even, that are adamant that we shouldn't have free speech in society.

I have encountered few people who have said “we shouldn’t have free speech in society”. Perhaps your argument needs more nuance to reflect the complexity of this issue.

I have seen fifteen or so such top- or second-level comments on this and the previous thread. It was about one apologist to every two critics there, and one to four here. It is by no means a rare perception here.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#810

Post by hackyhacky » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 4:23 PM UTC

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #750

hackyhacky wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the kinds of "both-sides-ism" that gives centrists a bad reputation. You're basically saying: "everyone uses media to achieve their goals, therefore all sides are equally bad." No. Using misinformation to intentionally disrupt a democratic election is demonstrably dangerous to society. Say what you will about the "establishment," but traditional media still bear some semblance of the truth. Now we're seeing t…

I don’t like the word bothsidesism because it implies that in reality only one side is the bad actor. That is a massive implication considering how casually it’s thrown around. Moreover, it’s used like an accusation. Accusing people of acknowledging that things probably aren’t black and white . Full on groupthink.

Not all bad actors are equally bad.

Hillary wasn't perfect. People didn't like her, and we got Trump.

The Weimar Republic was corrupt and ineffective. The Third Reich was corrupt and extremely effective.

Democracy is the history of choosing the least bad. If you consider all bads to be the same, you are not a responsible voter.