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Billionaires Build

paulgraham.com

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Re: Billionaires Build

#801

Post by simonh »

drewrv wrote: post #235

This essay uses a weak straw-man: the only way to become a billionaire is by exploiting people I think the "principle of charity" or "steel-man" criticism of billionaires isn't that every single billionaire is directly exploiting people. It would be closer to something like this: The problem is that our society has feedback loops that make it hard to escape poverty, and feedback loops that let the wealthy amass more…

Let’s phrase that feedback loop a bit more clearly. When a person finds a way to deploy resources more efficiently, to meet other people’s needs better and with improved efficiency, society has feedback looks that divert more resources to that persons control so they can do so at increased scale.

Isn’t that what we want?

Just a week ago or so on Reddit someone posted imagining how much good Elon could do with his Billions. I replied that yes, maybe he could devote those resources to push forward electrification of transport to mitigate global warming, invest heavily is solar power technology and devote resources to trying to create a future for humanity in space.

Well, of course, that’s exactly what he’s doing. All those billions aren’t stacked in a mountain of dollar notes in his basement, it’s embodied in the jobs, infrastructure, technology and products of his companies. This basic, fundamental ignorance of even the simplest economic concepts is incredibly common. I see it all the time, here as well.

Re: Billionaires Build

#802

Post by sokoloff »

hezag wrote: post #786
sokoloff wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Bill Gates degrading or improving the lives of people on the whole? Same question for Elon Musk.

But was the improvement on people's lives produced by the work of Gates or Musk alone? Or it required hundreds of people working to make it possible?

The latter of course, which is tangentially related (not contradictory) to my question.

Re: Billionaires Build

#803

Post by petra »

ChefboyOG wrote: post #785
WalterBright wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These days, you can start a successful internet business in your basement with just a computer. Nobody has to see you, your clothes, or your bad manners. You don't need a university education, though you can get one for free online as needed.

I mean, sure. I grew up poor and without much in the way of access to education, and the internet was really a saving grace for me, in terms of self-education, income, and simply finding community. At the same time, do you think the average income of a given internet business--let alone the segment that are run by solo entrepreneurs in their basement with just a computer and a $5 droplet--compares positively to the s…

On average, the internet probably made thing worse to the average employee. Everything became much more competitive and automated.

Re: Billionaires Build

#804

Post by timeeater »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #797
bedhead wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right about the feedback loops that make it hard to escape poverty. The most uncomfortable one to talk about is basic social network effects. Two people meet at some prestigious college and get married - are we shocked they have children who are predisposed for success? Besides from having god-given IQ, they are likely some combination of ambitious, punctual, respectful of authority, long-term oriented, hard-…

If they have those admirable middle class traits were they born that way? Or is cultural and social inheritance as influential as genetic inheritance? I used to live in an upper middle class area, and a worrying number of the people were very polished thieves. They spent an unholy amount of time fighting over inheritances with other family members and over property boundaries with neighbours. When they worked - inevi…

You have a weird concept of "thievery". If someone's prices are too high, don't hire them. If somebody doesn't pay enough, don't work for them.

If you think they are skimming money, then there has to be a way to offer the same services cheaper (without the skimming). So instead of complaining, do it. What's your excuse?

Re: Billionaires Build

#805

Post by petra »

simonh wrote: post #801
drewrv wrote: post #235

This essay uses a weak straw-man: the only way to become a billionaire is by exploiting people I think the "principle of charity" or "steel-man" criticism of billionaires isn't that every single billionaire is directly exploiting people. It would be closer to something like this: The problem is that our society has feedback loops that make it hard to escape poverty, and feedback loops that let the wealthy amass more…

Let’s phrase that feedback loop a bit more clearly. When a person finds a way to deploy resources more efficiently, to meet other people’s needs better and with improved efficiency, society has feedback looks that divert more resources to that persons control so they can do so at increased scale. Isn’t that what we want? Just a week ago or so on Reddit someone posted imagining how much good Elon could do with his Bil…

Musk is the exception, not the rule.

It's usually much easier to make money in unnecessary bullshit, and via rent-like activities, than in socially valuable activities. So that's what most rich people choose to do.

Re: Billionaires Build

#806

Post by MichaelBurge »

drewrv wrote: post #235

This essay uses a weak straw-man: the only way to become a billionaire is by exploiting people I think the "principle of charity" or "steel-man" criticism of billionaires isn't that every single billionaire is directly exploiting people. It would be closer to something like this: The problem is that our society has feedback loops that make it hard to escape poverty, and feedback loops that let the wealthy amass more…

In 2015, Buffett released his tax returns and paid $1.8 million on $11.6 million in income.

If his secretary paid more than $1.8 million in taxes, they have extremely high income and they shouldn't be used in a comparison of "desperate people struggling to get by" like Uber drivers.

Re: Billionaires Build

#807

Post by cosmodisk »

timeeater wrote: post #804
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they have those admirable middle class traits were they born that way? Or is cultural and social inheritance as influential as genetic inheritance? I used to live in an upper middle class area, and a worrying number of the people were very polished thieves. They spent an unholy amount of time fighting over inheritances with other family members and over property boundaries with neighbours. When they worked - inevi…

You have a weird concept of "thievery". If someone's prices are too high, don't hire them. If somebody doesn't pay enough, don't work for them. If you think they are skimming money, then there has to be a way to offer the same services cheaper (without the skimming). So instead of complaining, do it. What's your excuse?

It's not about prices. He's referring to "crooks with suits and big smiles". We all met at least a few. They aren't your local drug dealers or some shady pawn shop owners. They are usually in pretty good jobs. Lawyers that only care about getting more money from the client rather then really helping them, dentists who do rush jobs so they could make more money, realtors,who flock properties and "forget" to mention important aspects that could have an impact on the decision. Business owners who take everyone they deal with for a ride and so on. And yes, they do live in nice houses and nice neighborhoods and can often be mistaken for decent people.

Re: Billionaires Build

#808

Post by tompccs »

petra wrote: post #805
simonh wrote: post #801

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s phrase that feedback loop a bit more clearly. When a person finds a way to deploy resources more efficiently, to meet other people’s needs better and with improved efficiency, society has feedback looks that divert more resources to that persons control so they can do so at increased scale. Isn’t that what we want? Just a week ago or so on Reddit someone posted imagining how much good Elon could do with his Bil…

Musk is the exception, not the rule. It's usually much easier to make money in unnecessary bullshit, and via rent-like activities, than in socially valuable activities. So that's what most rich people choose to do.

Musk is on his way to becoming the richest man on earth, I hardly think in a conversation about billionaires you can discount the example of someone who represents a couple of hundred of them.

Re: Billionaires Build

#809

Post by Privacy846 »

varjag wrote: post #323
Privacy846 wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know who Graham is talking about—“politicians”?—but this is a very famous claim, or corollary, from Marx: capitalists exploit workers. Why? Because of the labor theory of value. (1) All value is created from labor. (2) Capitalists employ workers in order to extract surplus value from them (what’s the point of employing them if you don’t get more out of your “investment” than you pay it?). (3) Ergo capitalists…

> But it becomes farcical to claim that a person can become a billionaire without exploiting people. It is farcical to a Marxist maybe, with infinite patience for labor theory of value despite century worth of contradictory evidence.

Here’s a recent quote from the Marxist rag The Economist:

> One reason for the measure’s current strength is that the balance of power seems to have moved in favour of capital, and against labour, in recent decades. The decline of trade unions, and the addition of China to the global market, have weakened workers’ bargaining power; in the past 15 years, corporate profits have been regularly equivalent to more than 10% of American GDP, and at a much higher level than they were between 1960 and 2000.

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/12/04/expensiv...

But I’m still Graham’s Billionaires Build la-la land is still a reality, though.

Re: Billionaires Build

#810

Post by refurb »

hezag wrote: post #786
sokoloff wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Bill Gates degrading or improving the lives of people on the whole? Same question for Elon Musk.

But was the improvement on people's lives produced by the work of Gates or Musk alone? Or it required hundreds of people working to make it possible?

Of course he didn’t do it alone. But the people who got in early with Gates or Musk made out like bandits.

And the bigger question is - would Microsoft or Tesla happened at all with Gates or Musk? I mean, at least in Musk’s case everybody thought he was guaranteed to fail. I don’t begrudge his $1B of wealth in the least - he put his money where his mouth was when everyone else said it was dumb - but he was right.

It’s not like they Gate and Musk kept all the wealth for themselves. Didn’t Microsoft create several hundred millionaires? But if Gates and Musk were the key drivers for the very existence of the companies I don’t see any issue with them getting the lions shares of the returns.

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