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No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

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Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#801

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a interesting topic because it exposes one of the great sins developers commit - we don’t pay each other. I’m not talking about nickel and dimeing your fraternity, but there is certainly a reasonable price for a lot of these packages and plug-ins we install that can create financial autonomy for a lot of people via modest efforts.

Developers are the toughest customers because we all think: "that's just a small script and a cron job" done in a weekend and basically worth $0. All the while staying each day in a meeting costing a cumulative $xx(x) just to announce what the job for today is.

I agree that is part of the problem, but I think the real problem is that even if you accept the premise that it would take just a weekend it is still the wrong analysis for the company. Even a job that you can complete in an hour is easily $100-200 worth of direct engineering costs.

I think the real problem is that most developers naturally plug in the value of their time on a hobby project/in school (which is ~$0/hr) when deciding if a time-cost tradeoff is worthwhile. Since the answer is almost always no if you incorrectly value time at $0/hr and management usually can not do the analysis themselves, management pattern matches and determines that spending money on developer tooling is essentially never worthwhile and that sums like $5k (which few people would spend on personal projects) are outrageous. If the correct time-value analysis was done, you would get outcomes more like electrical engineers (who generally make less than high-end software developers) where companies will spend literally $50k/yr/engineer on tooling to make them 50% more productive since that actually makes perfect business sense based on the amount they are being paid. In contrast, if you went to management in a software company pushing for a $50k/yr/developer expense they would probably laugh you out of the room or require some totally outrageous improvement like 10x for everybody.

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#802
I'll be honest, that's not how open source worked ever. You solve your own problem. If other people share the problem they will help. Entitlement is thinking that people owe you something.

If you don't want corporations to fork, use GNU licensing. If you don't find their feedback on modification useful... Ignore it

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#803

Not limited to software but modern society has a REALLY serious entitlement problem. (To the point where if I see a video on Reddit of someone screaming at a retail employee, it is not even surprising anymore.) I’ve had free and open projects for years, with evidence of thousands of users. Yet I could count on one hand the number of times anyone has bothered to thank me, much less donate. I do occasionally get E-mail…

[deleted]

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#804
I've always thought the struggle of people not wanting to pay for software or expecting you to go out of your way for free comes primarily from the fact that for things like software (but this also applies to art) there is no physical product.

Of course, this is just unfounded speculation on my part, but I feel as though there is some kind of sub-conscious thought, brought about by years of being taught that generally speaking, things that are larger or have fancier packaging are more valuable, and that exchanging money should result in something that you can hold and take stock of.

Software (or really anything in the digital space), while being something that we can cognitively see, is not something we can hold or even try to accurately value using any rough method we usually come up with to do so.

On top of that, digital goods are only ever seen as a finished product, and the average person can't fully comprehend the effort and time that goes into producing that finished product, meaning that effort expectations range from "click a button and it's done", to "I reckon I could make this in a weekend".

Personally, I think this dissonance between better valuing something physical can be seen in peoples willingness to pay hundreds to thousands of dollars for an iPhone, but absolutely refusing to pay 99 cents for an app for the iPhone you just bought.

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#805

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He is innocent until proven guilty ... Not "reasonable chance" according to your random opinion, but a judge and jury and various council go through a legal case and legally find him guilty. If someone is running towards you with a knife shouting religious scripture, are you going to stand still and think to yourself "I'm going to assume this person is innocent until they are convicted of my murder in a court of la…

Is the court of public opinion what makes you run away from someone coming at you with a knife?! Is a compelling article using stinging quotes what makes you think a knife coming at you is going to be a bad thing? They're completely non-comparable concepts. It's such an embarrassingly lazy strawman I can't believe you bothered to waste words on it, and it's silly I should have to respond to it. Innocent until proven…

> Someone running at you with a knife? Where the hell does public opinion come into it?

Look, you decided to build your entire argument on this extreme form of innocent-until-proven-guilty-nonsense. So I took an extreme example to demonstrate to you that your position was too strong. Let me try to explain in more detail: if you must assume that "everyone is innocent" until they are proven guilty in a court of law, then clearly you would assume that the man charging at you with a knife has no intention of committing a crime, right? Since you assume that they are entirely innocent, then there is no risk of being murdered, so you would not try to run away, right? Can you see how that doesn't make sense? Clearly you would try to run away from someone running at you with a knife, and that's because you have no obligation (legal or otherwise) to assume that everyone is innocent. It's okay to assign probabilities to different events, including crimes that people may or may not commit.

If you didn't take the extreme position to begin with, we wouldn't have to go over extreme examples to demonstrate why your extreme position was wrong. Anyway, I'm going to assume that we both now agree that there is no obligation to assume people are innocent until proven guilty. If you still disagree, please explain how this obligation should work out in the context of the knifeman attack.

> ...the same way a literal alarm clock splayed out in a box became a national scandal...

...but this was not an alarm clock. This was ammonium nitrate (among other stuff). Ammonium nitrate is used for fertilizer and explosives. Was he a farmer? No. So either he was intending to use it for explosives, or he was running some chemistry experiments or something. Can you see how this is different from the possession of an alarm clock?

For what it's worth, I think the most likely explanation for the stuff found is that he was geeking out some harmless experiments. I think the second most likely explanation is that he was going to build bombs and blow stuff up in the forest for fun. I don't think it's likely that he intended to hurt people in bombs, because it's extremely rare for people outside warzones to hurt other people with bombs. But it's definitely within the realm of possibility, and it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

> Someone asking for money for thousands of hours of free work that they've done after their apartment burns down and they're left homeless?

I'm not calling for any fundraisers to be shut down, and I'm not admonishing people for donating money. Even if he intended to hurt people with bombs (which he probably didn't), I think the world is going to be a better place if people donate money and help him get on his feet. Let's hope that the investigation can clear him innocent of any suspicions, and that this doesn't loom over his job search in the future.

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#806

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you release under MIT and you don't have a plan for public speaking, or consulting then you have no way to profit financially from that work. Used to be that you could offer hosted solutions, but if you become too high profile the Cloud providers will have a 'better' offering. Too many of us still fall into this Calvinistic work ethic that if we just put in the work the rewards will appear through some ineffable m…

This. The other fallacy is that a work is not yet good enough to charge for it.

How often is that true though?

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#807

Not limited to software but modern society has a REALLY serious entitlement problem. (To the point where if I see a video on Reddit of someone screaming at a retail employee, it is not even surprising anymore.) I’ve had free and open projects for years, with evidence of thousands of users. Yet I could count on one hand the number of times anyone has bothered to thank me, much less donate. I do occasionally get E-mail…

One of the problems with large companies using these free libraries and tools is that the people who are choosing to use these free resources are just developers themselves -- they usually have little power to allocate the much deserved resources to the shoulders that they're standing on. Because of this, there is a huge untapped opportunity to allocate resources better to pay open source contributors for their hard…

At some point it becomes operationally risky for a company to freeload when they get to a certain size so you see things like enterprise support or hiring dedicated engineers to support the software.

I think you will find examples of this at lots of large tech companies (Google, Facebook, Amazon). Linux kernel is a good example here and key features like cgroups were started at Google

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#808

On Twitter, he claims that he was recently made homeless due to an apartment fire, and asks the community to send funds to help him avoid homelessness, which seems reasonable enough. He later goes on to describe "fake news written by the NY Post." I searched for this, and found an article that might be the article he describes (timing fits) [0] Pretty crazy story, all in all! He seems to be in some pretty dire strait…

This looks like a pretty popular project, so I assume he's decently talented. How does he not have a day job? Passion projects are great and all, but they're not known for paying the bills. Especially for solo maintainers, it's almost like playing a gig at a coffee shop for tips. Want to make a career out of it? You need talent, marketability, and be ready to compromise on your vision.

Maybe because he’s banned from a bunch of open source communities for threatening comments and being an asshole. Oh and also was arrested in September for having bomb making materials.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/16/resident-of-nyc-home-with-susp...

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the problem with a cost-plus pricing model? Having a solid ecosystem of cost-plus priced open source software would already be a great step up from the status quo.

No problem per-se, but to give a simple example: Suppose a developer, let's call him Salvatore, lives in a modest apartment in, say Italy, and would live very comfortably indeed on three hundred thousand euros a year. And let's say three cloud providers, call them, Jungle, Blue, and Lots, agree to give Salvatore a hundred thousand a year each to keep developing a, I don't know, a high-performance in-memory database.…

Congratulations! You have just described capitalism! Have a lolly pop.

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#810

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The ridiculous treadmill of people saying UBI is going to work despite all evidence to the contrary, apparently a long, long time..

> despite all evidence to the contrary

Do you happen to have some of this evidence on hand? Everything I've read on it suggests the exact opposite: that (at least here in the US) it'll not only work better than existing welfare systems, but would end up being cheaper.

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