The Unemployable Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#81

Post by fmsf » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:10 PM UTC

eitally wrote: post #68

smoyer wrote: post #2

We have openings we can't fill because we're specifically looking for "nerds" (those who actually do live, eat and breathe code). And I've got a similar CV with the exception that I never left writing software (I did give up on hardware development). Care to e-mail me a CV?

It's funny you mention that. My hiring success (in terms of impact the new hires made) went way up when we stopped wording job postings using traditional enterprisy language & bullets and instead posted much simpler "hackers wanted" at the local universities. Note: this was in Mexico, not the US, though a handful of the folks I recruited there have gone on to work for SV startups. I feel obligated to note one special…

That is not poaching, that is you either not rewarding properly or having a sub par work environment

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#82

Post by mkozlows » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:10 PM UTC

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs.

And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing move... unless you turn it into one, by letting your skills stagnate and wither, which is on you.

(Or maybe that wasn't a development job for those ten years? The article is vague. If, for some reason, the poster was out of the dev world for a decade then yeah, it's going to be harder to get back in without a lot of aggressive self-retraining. But even then, if you actually can program, it should be very do-able.)

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#83

Post by matwood » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:11 PM UTC

dublinclontarf wrote: post #45

Udo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is a shortage of good developers (for various definitions of good). But couldn't that simply be a result of an inadequate selection process, instigated by a flood of applicants, and then worsened by an inability to judge who will be good in what role? It seems very easy to dismiss anyone looking for work on the grounds that they must not be very good to begin with. All we know is not enough long-term suitable…

There are multiple problems we're talking about here. One is the selection problem, that orgs have great difficulty in working out who is a good developer and who is not. The other is that there are a lot of developers who have difficulty in getting work, and to a large extent a lot of them just aren't any good and would be better off in a different career (sorry but that's just the way it is). Once you've removed th…

> Once you've removed the rubbish developers there are indeed far more jobs than developers.

Agree. And once you add in the big companies like FB, Google, etc... picking up a huge lot of the good+ developers, everyone else is scrambling to find someone who can at a minimum do FizzBuzz.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#84

Post by igth » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:12 PM UTC

eitally wrote: post #62

igth wrote: post #41

Reading stories like these really, really scares me. I'm European, and next year my wife and I will most likely move to the US together (long story short: she is a US citizen, we have decided to move, and have already applied). I'm super excited about that. I currently work as a Rails developer, have a diverse background as a Linux sysadmin and developer, and have never had problems finding (or keeping) work where I…

Start making friends in the US, now. Look for meetups, find Facebook groups, figure out which companies have a significant presence in the area where you'll be relocating. You're starting from nothing with your social network but you already have valuable skills. Get to work on the networking now and you'll set yourself up to easily find work once you land ... if not sooner.

One thing that I am definitely planning on doing is sending emails to companies of interest some months before the move and just introduce myself. You're absolutely right though: networking starts now, but it is hard when I can't be there in person and go to meetups, etc.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#85

Post by robotkilla » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:13 PM UTC

jacknews wrote: post #64

mpermar wrote: post #47

Now, seriously, if a software engineer in his/her forties is unemployable in 2015, what the heck is an accountant, lawyer, a builder, a painter or a woodworker to just name a few? Come on. We are so lucky we did choose technology as a way of living. Sorry but stop complaining and start learning back new stuff. Can't believe what someone has to read. -- A developer in his forties.

I don't think the comparison with lawyers and accountants really works, those careers seem to reward seniority quite heavily. Perhaps for builders and painters (as in walls, not canvas), it is more appropriate, since in technology I guess programming is more equivalent to a tradesman, than an architect.

> I don't think the comparison with lawyers and accountants really works

I do, but I think it was misapplied. My step-grandmother is a business lawyer who has passed the bar in multiple states including Florida. She is extremely intelligent, reads faster than anyone I've encountered and is very current with the times. She is also 60 and hasn't been able to get a job in years due to her age... so she has to contract.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#86

Post by bayesianhorse » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:13 PM UTC

magicbuzz wrote: post #42

The whole 'do an open source' project is a crock. I single-handedly wrote a large Javascript module for a well-known editor. It's used by hundreds of people around the world but all the folks employing 'front-end' programmers seem to bin my CV as my current fulltime job is 100% Python.

Though I can't understand why someone wants desperately to switch from Python to Javascript, I do believe open source projects or at least side projects are very useful.

They show what you can do, and that you are able to solve problems. Maybe the editor plugin is not doing that. A cool demo is worth more than a thousand lines of well written code.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#87

Post by School-Cotton » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:14 PM UTC

eitally wrote: post #68

smoyer wrote: post #2

We have openings we can't fill because we're specifically looking for "nerds" (those who actually do live, eat and breathe code). And I've got a similar CV with the exception that I never left writing software (I did give up on hardware development). Care to e-mail me a CV?

It's funny you mention that. My hiring success (in terms of impact the new hires made) went way up when we stopped wording job postings using traditional enterprisy language & bullets and instead posted much simpler "hackers wanted" at the local universities. Note: this was in Mexico, not the US, though a handful of the folks I recruited there have gone on to work for SV startups. I feel obligated to note one special…

What's wrong with poaching? You don't own your employees; this isn't 1850.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#88

Post by mgkimsal » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:14 PM UTC

jcadam wrote: post #69

Hmm... I'm a 35 year old programmer and I work in Defense/Aerospace. If you think finding a good developer is hard, try finding a good developer who also holds a security clearance. If you're any good at all, you will always be employed and well compensated. The work can be dull, with Vogon-esque processes and procedures, but I have side projects to keep me sane :) Every couple of years (ok, at least every year) I'll…

Problem there is you can't just go get a security clearance - you have to be ... sponsored(?) - is that the word - by a company already. At least, that was my reading of the situation a few years back. I gave up applying to defense positions years ago because every one required existing security clearance. It's the defense industry version of "you have to have experience before we'll hire you to get the experience".

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#89

Post by huherto » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:15 PM UTC

fmsf wrote: post #56

duggan wrote: post #44

> Being able to get work in this field without a fancy background is still possible, but only if you have the right connections. Like I said: it's no longer sufficient to be able to do the job This sentiment regularly comes up on HN, and I find it a little exasperating. Human interaction has always been an important part of career. There's a subtle (or not so subtle) contempt for soft skills in these laments. You can…

In most cases we need to sort CVs somehow. If we sort by degree there is a high chance that someone in the top 10 fits the position. Interviewing dozens of candidates is very resource consuming. I can emphasise with his story, but is all game of numbers in the end.

FTFY empathize :)

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#90

Post by camdenre » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:16 PM UTC

planetjones wrote: post #10

Is your physical location also having an influence here? There's no doubt programming jobs have got harder for a lot of people to get and I never believe articles about a shortage of STEM candidates (just there's a shortage of them at the right price). However, I know a few people in the UK who don't struggle for programming jobs (London area) even though they've got no university degree.

I was thinking the same thing about location. If you can, move to a city where there is less competition for jobs. Midwest cities have a lot of jobs in banking and insurance that aren't as competitive.