Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes • Hacker News Board

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#81

Post by frogpelt » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 7:53 PM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #77

frogpelt wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish you would explain how advertising is "inherently immoral". But before you do, I'll explain why I disagree. Advertising is selling ideas. You are selling an idea right now. Just because your idea doesn't make you any money doesn't make it any more inherently moral or immoral. The old cliche, time is money, is basically true. People are trying to maximize their time and more specifically, the value they get from…

I'm going to advertise a YouTube video. It's just over 2 minutes in length and shows one reason why some people dislike advertisements of any sort. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--LIrN-5PQo >Advertising is selling ideas. More often it's advertising products and in a way that's manipulative. >The companies who produce advertisements and the share holders who pressure those companies are made up of regular people. Th…

I believe if three people come in to my restaurant and ask for fish tacos, it is an inherently moral thing for me to begin selling fish tacos. Furthermore, it is inherently moral for me to advertise that I have started selling fish tacos so everyone else will know.

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#82

Post by frogpelt » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 8:07 PM UTC

daviross wrote: post #76

frogpelt wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish you would explain how advertising is "inherently immoral". But before you do, I'll explain why I disagree. Advertising is selling ideas. You are selling an idea right now. Just because your idea doesn't make you any money doesn't make it any more inherently moral or immoral. The old cliche, time is money, is basically true. People are trying to maximize their time and more specifically, the value they get from…

Just because your idea doesn't make you any money doesn't make it any more inherently moral or immoral. It puts things at a moral deficit, at least. (In other words, it's not necessarily immoral, but it does mean there's ground to make up) People are trying to maximize their time and more specifically, the value they get from their time. You're treating this as not having moral weight/impact. This isn't a neutral sta…

You're going a lot deeper than I am with this.

Do you feel your mind is being controlled by advertisements? Because mine is not.

Maybe I'm some weird exception and maybe you think I'm naive. That's fine.

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#83

Post by Nadya » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 8:23 PM UTC

frogpelt wrote: post #81

Nadya wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to advertise a YouTube video. It's just over 2 minutes in length and shows one reason why some people dislike advertisements of any sort. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--LIrN-5PQo >Advertising is selling ideas. More often it's advertising products and in a way that's manipulative. >The companies who produce advertisements and the share holders who pressure those companies are made up of regular people. Th…

I believe if three people come in to my restaurant and ask for fish tacos, it is an inherently moral thing for me to begin selling fish tacos. Furthermore, it is inherently moral for me to advertise that I have started selling fish tacos so everyone else will know.

I agree to both of your points [0], but you ignore a third. What about people who have already heard you are selling fish tacos, don't care, and want you to shut up? Or people who have preemptively decided that they don't want to hear any advertisements for fish tacos, due to allergies, they simply don't care to hear about fish tacos.

How long should they hear that you are selling fish tacos before deciding to avoid you? Should they ever have to hear you advertising your fish tacos?

Note that I said "avoid you" and not "prevent you from advertising your fish tacos". You're free to advertise to other people - but people who have decided they want nothing to do with fish tacos should be free to avoid you.

You provide no compelling reason for why people not interested in fish tacos shouldn't be able to avoid you and your fish taco advertisements.

[0] For the sake of argument I'll consider that selling fish tacos to people who desire fish tacos to be a morally just decision and entertain the thought that other people want fish tacos who may not have heard you are selling fish tacos, and thus benefit from your advertisement is also moral. Morals are relative and so nothing is "inherently moral" though I don't want to confuse you by disagreeing with you on this point.

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#84

Post by frogpelt » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 8:33 PM UTC

lentil_soup wrote: post #29

elisee wrote: post #16

Related, though less about brands, I really liked "This Video Will Make You Angry" by CGP Grey. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc - Thoughts/memes as germs trying to reproduce and spread, battling for attention and thriving when people endlessly argue as part of an us/them dynamic.

This reminds me a lot of The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene ). That book actually coined the word "meme". Mindblowing book if you haven't read it.

Having seen this link, many of the responses in this thread make a lot more sense now.

I'm starting to see a meme emerge here.

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#85

Post by bikamonki » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 11:38 PM UTC

splawn wrote: post #71

mirimir wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some memes immunize us against other memes. As a scientist, I'm immunized against all sorts of religious memes. But of course, carriers of religious memes are typically immunized (at least partially) against scientific memes.

I do not disagree with your point. However, if a meme works on the unconscious as many ad campaigns supposedly do, then it seems to me like anyone that makes the claim that they are "immune" should viewed skeptically. No one wants to think that advertising affects their choices, yet advertising seems to work.

True, it was a bold claim on my end. In lack of complete information we will be tricked by subtle clues, like the first time you visit a town you'll be driven to one restaurant and not others bases on such clues triggering your already hard-wired bias. But for the most part I can tell, and ignore, ads/coercive memes. They don't annoy me at all, I truly just ignore them.

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#86

Post by branchless » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 2:24 AM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #56

pixl97 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In meatspace, I just don't look Honestly that sounds impossible, practically dangerous. Just go out in a park, people are walking billboards. Clothes, shoes, accessories they all seem to be plastered with logos. Along the road, billboards, many of them electronic flashing messages. Oh and logos over everything, everywhere. Big yellow arches. Communications companies love sticking their corporate image on every surfa…

When I notice a logo on someone, my first thought is "What a git!" ;) I remove logos from my stuff, or nuke them with waterproof black marker. I don't look at billboards. And anyway, looking at billboards while driving is dangerous. But yes, it's often impossible to avoid seeing ads. But as I said, it's my practice to focus on deconstruction. I also tend to imagine how to revise them for humor ;)

I don't buy things with logos. I agree it can be kept to a minimum. It depends where you live. London is saturated with advertising everywhere, including on steps. Montreal has far less and we are better off for it. To hell with the revenue.

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#87

Post by frogpelt » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 3:28 PM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #83

frogpelt wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe if three people come in to my restaurant and ask for fish tacos, it is an inherently moral thing for me to begin selling fish tacos. Furthermore, it is inherently moral for me to advertise that I have started selling fish tacos so everyone else will know.

I agree to both of your points [0], but you ignore a third. What about people who have already heard you are selling fish tacos, don't care, and want you to shut up? Or people who have preemptively decided that they don't want to hear any advertisements for fish tacos, due to allergies, they simply don't care to hear about fish tacos. How long should they hear that you are selling fish tacos before deciding to avoid…

I guess that's just tough for them.

I can tell you where anti-capitalistic thinking ends up and its not with everyone having more control over what propaganda they are bombarded with--just fewer sources.

Re: Your Head as a Battleground, Dueling Memes

#88

Post by Nadya » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 8:35 PM UTC

frogpelt wrote: post #87

Nadya wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree to both of your points [0], but you ignore a third. What about people who have already heard you are selling fish tacos, don't care, and want you to shut up? Or people who have preemptively decided that they don't want to hear any advertisements for fish tacos, due to allergies, they simply don't care to hear about fish tacos. How long should they hear that you are selling fish tacos before deciding to avoid…

I guess that's just tough for them. I can tell you where anti-capitalistic thinking ends up and its not with everyone having more control over what propaganda they are bombarded with--just fewer sources.

Which is where it becomes "inherently immoral".

We have the means to make advertisers shut up without actually silencing them. They're free to advertise to other people still.