We apologize • Hacker News Board

Re: We apologize

#81

Post by SerpentJoe » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 7:25 PM UTC

Raphmedia wrote: post #27

emehrkay wrote: post #10

I like Reddit, a lot, but the community is shit. I read this apology and then Ellen's reply and that has negative 55 hundred votes. They have no real reason to dislike her. They have no real reason to be mad at the one woman being fired. They're just coming off as a bunch of upset kids with some "authority" in the form of votes or moderation. As a casual user I have no need to dislike Ellen or feel slighted by the wo…

Disclaimer: I have been a moderator on a website of slightly less than a million registered users from 2003 to 2008 so I have my heart on the moderator's side. The moderators of Reddit actually have very legitimate issues and are bringing points that need to be addressed. Moderators of websites as big as reddit should be managed correctly and supervised. They should also have a line on communication with the administ…

There are certainly legitimate complaints to be made about how Reddit empowers the volunteer work of moderators, but that is the least of the complaints that are clogging the site right now. There are three major objections being raised loudly and repeatedly:

1) Moderators, who provide a huge portion of the value of the site, are treated with disrespect by the organization.

2) An employee whose availability was useful to a few major subreddits was dismissed without warning, leaving those subreddits in the lurch, which is emblematic of the above disrespect.

3) Ellen Pao is CEO.

These are presented in decreasing order of relevance to the actual problem, and increasing order of urgency to those driving the discussion.

Pao needs to do an AMA. A small number of users is upset at her stance in favor of diversity and against sexism, and because she's historically refused to directly engage a community that's gotten used to having direct access to movie stars and presidents, those few have been able to convince many more that she's a cold bitch and doesn't deserve respect. She needs to be on the front page all day gracefully responding to the revolting things being said about her so that normal users can remember that she's an actual person and not an anonymous force of nature advancing evil in the world.

Edit: Seems that's what she's doing right now.

Re: We apologize

#82

Post by jacquesm » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 7:29 PM UTC

SerpentJoe wrote: post #81

Raphmedia wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I have been a moderator on a website of slightly less than a million registered users from 2003 to 2008 so I have my heart on the moderator's side. The moderators of Reddit actually have very legitimate issues and are bringing points that need to be addressed. Moderators of websites as big as reddit should be managed correctly and supervised. They should also have a line on communication with the administ…

There are certainly legitimate complaints to be made about how Reddit empowers the volunteer work of moderators, but that is the least of the complaints that are clogging the site right now. There are three major objections being raised loudly and repeatedly: 1) Moderators, who provide a huge portion of the value of the site, are treated with disrespect by the organization. 2) An employee whose availability was usefu…

> She needs to be on the front page all day gracefully responding to the revolting things being said about her so that normal users can remember that she's an actual person and not an anonymous force of nature advancing evil in the world.

Because that worked so well for kn0thing...

Re: We apologize

#83

Post by vonklaus » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 7:29 PM UTC

emehrkay wrote: post #10

I like Reddit, a lot, but the community is shit. I read this apology and then Ellen's reply and that has negative 55 hundred votes. They have no real reason to dislike her. They have no real reason to be mad at the one woman being fired. They're just coming off as a bunch of upset kids with some "authority" in the form of votes or moderation. As a casual user I have no need to dislike Ellen or feel slighted by the wo…

I know you are trolling, but people legitimately are asking this question so I will respond.

>I can't even get a straight answer as to why they're upset. >they're >they

Reddit is 160 million people because it is a huge online community. Calling them children and referring to them as a contiguous unit of alike individuals is laughable. So there isn't a straight answer why some subset of 160 million people are angry but a lot of them are for various reasons.

>I have no need to dislike Ellen or feel slighted by the woman being fired

Brendan Eich was way more qualified to run Mozilla than Pao is to run reddit. He was really fucking good at his job and is one of the smartest engineers in tech. He couldn't effectively do his job and had to resign. It doesn't matter if the backlash was fair, it was impacting the company negatively. Pao is not the right person to run reddit, hasn't made great decisions, is followed by personal scandal and is generally detested by the community(which is reddits product). She has to step down whether you feel slighted about it or not.

Re: We apologize

#84

Post by mrec » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 7:30 PM UTC

jordigh wrote: post #58

shock-value wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the price that's paid to have a site that encourages anonymity. You can't deny that there are benefits to said anonymity at the same time though.

I don't think so. I don't see this kind of behaviour widely upvoted in HN or in Lobsters, and we're no less anonymous here or there.

HN is small and heavily weighted towards programming-related types. You don't see that kind of behaviour widely upvoted in the smaller programming-related subreddits either.

I'm a heavy Reddit user who steers well clear of the default-sub cesspits, and I basically never see it.

Re: We apologize

#85

Post by psychometry » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 7:31 PM UTC

shock-value wrote: post #41

psychometry wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One look at the completely irrelevant second sentence of the petition to remove her [1] should tell you everything to know about why users are actually angry at her. This outcry would've been minor if reddit had a male CEO without the failed lawsuit in the rear view mirror. Reddit has harbored toxic subreddits for long enough that they've nurtured a huge user base of racists and misogynists. It's a demographic crisis…

You could say the same about Twitter's hosting individuals who espouse toxic views. I believe that Reddit essentially wants to be a Twitter for communities (as opposed to individuals), in that they aren't interested in guiding the moral ethos of its userbase (beyond removing illegal or harassing content). So, honest question, would you apply your criticism to Twitter? (and if not, why not?)

I don't use Twitter, so I have no idea. But each company, despite their freewheeling public images, has a right to dictate how their services are used. If that means adopting a stronger stance on these toxic elements in order to improve their user experience (and attractiveness to advertisers), it's probably best to do it.

Reddit is not beholden to to their users to the degree that those users probably believe. Nor are they beholden to some imagined ethos about being a place where all speech is protected.

Re: We apologize

#86

Post by nahiluhmot » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 7:32 PM UTC

vonklaus wrote: post #83

emehrkay wrote: post #10

I like Reddit, a lot, but the community is shit. I read this apology and then Ellen's reply and that has negative 55 hundred votes. They have no real reason to dislike her. They have no real reason to be mad at the one woman being fired. They're just coming off as a bunch of upset kids with some "authority" in the form of votes or moderation. As a casual user I have no need to dislike Ellen or feel slighted by the wo…

I know you are trolling, but people legitimately are asking this question so I will respond. >I can't even get a straight answer as to why they're upset. >they're >they Reddit is 160 million people because it is a huge online community. Calling them children and referring to them as a contiguous unit of alike individuals is laughable. So there isn't a straight answer why some subset of 160 million people are angry bu…

What makes you think parent is trolling?

Re: We apologize

#87

Post by joeevans1000 » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 7:33 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #17

joeevans1000 wrote: post #2

They are trying to reframe the discussion around the idea that they failed in communicating. What they failed in, actually, was keeping an astounding and dedicated employee their users loved.

No, I think they're dead on. They're allowed to fire people even if the community likes them. But they did fail to communicate. They failed to communicate it was going to happen (no public transition). They failed to communicate it DID happen (people found out via side-channels), they failed to communicate a plan to keep things going smoothly (seems they didn't have one, which is amazing). This applies to other incid…

> No, I think they're dead on. They're allowed to fire people even if the community likes them.

Well, this is true, because as owners can do whatever they want. But Reddit's 'product' is community, plain and simple. So firing a loved admin is essentially taking away a bit of the reason for being on the site for many of the users. I think at the heart of the discontent is the tension between a grass roots community and the fact that there is ultimately a autocratic power over it all. In other words, the firing is a reminder to the users that they don't have control over their community.

This whole incident is just growing pain. Ultimately, they will form or join another community where they don't need a paid liaison to the AMA person. That community will have more self-governance. Additionally, that community may self-fund itself, and the destruction of the the community in the interest of monetization will be less easy. There is likely a lot of work that needs be done to enable that type of community, both technically and socially.

Re: We apologize

#88

Post by jacquesm » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 7:34 PM UTC

jeletonskelly wrote: post #32

Nadya wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Victoria being let off ruined a lot of currently planned AMA's - because she played such a huge part in it all. It's like firing the person who wrote a language your company uses internally with little to no documentation: absolutely everything is going to go to hell until someone comes in, learns what and how things were done, and can replace that person. With no word as to why she left or was fired - it screams som…

AMA worked fine before all the organization and planning of celebrity appearances. If you're a celebrity or politician or whatever, just hop on, make a post, message a mod for verification or post something to twitter and have at it. The only reason it became so ridiculous is because the mods themselves wanted to feel important, like they were "running" AMA. If some "important" person can't use the internet, then don…

I suspect the added complexity is because of the care some of the more visible AMA subjects take in managing their image.

Re: We apologize

#89

Post by georgemcbay » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 7:35 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #82

SerpentJoe wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are certainly legitimate complaints to be made about how Reddit empowers the volunteer work of moderators, but that is the least of the complaints that are clogging the site right now. There are three major objections being raised loudly and repeatedly: 1) Moderators, who provide a huge portion of the value of the site, are treated with disrespect by the organization. 2) An employee whose availability was usefu…

> She needs to be on the front page all day gracefully responding to the revolting things being said about her so that normal users can remember that she's an actual person and not an anonymous force of nature advancing evil in the world. Because that worked so well for kn0thing...

Alexis' early responses were the exact opposite of "graceful".

Re: We apologize

#90

Post by psychometry » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 7:35 PM UTC

vonklaus wrote: post #83

emehrkay wrote: post #10

I like Reddit, a lot, but the community is shit. I read this apology and then Ellen's reply and that has negative 55 hundred votes. They have no real reason to dislike her. They have no real reason to be mad at the one woman being fired. They're just coming off as a bunch of upset kids with some "authority" in the form of votes or moderation. As a casual user I have no need to dislike Ellen or feel slighted by the wo…

I know you are trolling, but people legitimately are asking this question so I will respond. >I can't even get a straight answer as to why they're upset. >they're >they Reddit is 160 million people because it is a huge online community. Calling them children and referring to them as a contiguous unit of alike individuals is laughable. So there isn't a straight answer why some subset of 160 million people are angry bu…

Don't you think you're being a bit premature in your assessment of Pao? She's an interim CEO who's been on the job mere months. Shutting down the subreddits she did needed to happen in order for reddit to be viable long-term. This latest issue is just about disaffected male teenagers looking for a reason to get mad at the new female CEO. It's so transparent and so pathetic.