Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending • Hacker News Board

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#81

Post by smhg » Sun, Jun 28, 2015, 1:50 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #76

jeroen94704 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you are forgetting that Greece made a lot of tough decisions for its people when asked by its creditors to "reform" yet it is just not sustainable, it's like asking the greeks to commit suicide. No, I am not forgetting this. The Greek people are certainly suffering from the reforms. But this suffering would have happened anyway, with or without the Euro. Greece has made such a mess of its finances, in a number of w…

> It is this free trade that Germany is profiting from, not the Euro currency. Once again a blatant falsehood. When economically strong and weaker countries share a currency the stronger countries benefit, because it pushes the value of their currency down. This means they can export effectively, especially to the countries who suddenly have a stronger currency with more purchasing power than they otherwise would hav…

> countries who suddenly have a stronger currency with more purchasing power than they otherwise would have had

Does this mean Greece (let's stick to them) was predetermined to get hit the moment they joined the Eurozone?

If yes, could you please elaborate how that wasn't visible to them? Or, if it was, what motivated them to take this road anyway?

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#82

Post by randomname2 » Sun, Jun 28, 2015, 1:52 PM UTC

randomname2 wrote: post #44

ECB statement: ELA to Greek banks maintained at its current level - ECB takes note of decision on Greek referendum and the non-prolongation of the EU adjustment programme - ECB will work closely with Bank of Greece to maintain financial stability - Emergency liquidity assistance maintained at Friday’s (26 June 2015) level - Governing Council stands ready to review decision - Governing Council closely monitoring situa…

Further headlines from Bloomberg after the ECB put out this press release:

- ECB SAID TO SEE EXISTING GREEK ELA INADEQUATE FOR BANKS' NEEDS

- ECB SAID TO VIEW BANK HOLIDAY FOR GREECE AS NECESSARY

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#83

Post by rorykoehler » Sun, Jun 28, 2015, 1:56 PM UTC

quonn wrote: post #42

radicalbyte wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They retired at 61, whilst in Northern Europe we've just had to raise the age to 67. They - like the Italians - don't like paying their taxes. http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2010/02/greeces_g... We should bail them out, but they should also retire at 67, the (existing) final salary pensions should be cut back and they should start paying their taxes.

This claim has been debunked here: http://blog.zeit.de/herdentrieb/2015/06/18/die-griechische-r... EU data: Greece 64.4 years, Germany: 65.1. OECD data: Greece 61.9 years vs. Germany 62.1 So it is actually the same.

Good find. The amount of self-serving disinformation around this whole debacle is disturbing.

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#84

Post by themartorana » Sun, Jun 28, 2015, 1:57 PM UTC

mafribe wrote: post #14

themartorana wrote: post #4

As I understand it, one of the major underlying issues this whole time (aside from the silliness of trying to integrate Greece's economy with Germany's) was the ECB's refusal to act as the lender of last resort. This seems like an affirmation of that. If Greece exits the Euro, I wonder if that will embolden other countries to do the same.

The ECB has effectively acted as a lender of last resort to Greece for a looong time (just look at ELA [1] for example), although for political reasons this fact has been sugar-coated so as not to scare the electorate in states that pay for Greece (and are now beginning to see what has been clear to anyone who looked at the figures, namely that the money is gone!). Greece was effectively bankrupt years ago. The main…

But there aren't many countries in the First World that run revenue neutral or better. The U.S. certainly doesn't, and most countries with fiat currencies and their own central banks don't. I realize it's "possible" in the broad sense, but Germany aside, it's a big ask of Greece (and austerity thus far has done about bupkis to actually deal with the fallout of the financial crisis).

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#85

Post by dghughes » Sun, Jun 28, 2015, 2:07 PM UTC

elmar wrote: post #45

chkuendig wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Varoufakis apparently told BBC that the banks might stay closed tomorrow and that capital controls could be imposed. http://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/615112479828348928 edit: scratch that. http://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/615127339102531584

Not imposing capital restrictions is suicide, i don't know if Yanis varoufakis is an economical genius a madman or simply amateurish.

Alexis Tsipras is genius the referendum means he doesn't have to do his job.

He can just say "See you all decided not me."

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#86

Post by harywilke » Sun, Jun 28, 2015, 2:09 PM UTC

drited wrote: post #12

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #2

tl;dr ECB has leaked to BBC they will cut off emergency lending that covers the panic withdrawals. This will kill the deal and force a grexit, even before 5 July referendum. However French PM does not think they have enough independence to do that. So we have a democratic nation potentially forced to leave Euro, after democratically deciding it no longer wants the austerity imposed, being forced to leave by non democ…

What's the alternative for the ECB? Give €129 bn to Greek banks to replace the deposits that are bound to flee this week only to see it lost when they default after saying no in the referendum? The Greek banks would have been bust long ago if it wasn't for the ECB's emergency lending; they've been provided with €60 bn in liquidity over the last 6 months to replace the deposit flight. Not sure how you can characterise…

The alternative is to start investing in Greece. To build up it's economy so we can end the Greek Depression. As it stands now the austerity packages have cut 30% off of the economy and increased the unemployment rates to nearly 30%, 50% of the youth. Those are Great Depression size numbers. Hard to collect taxes when people are not working. All these bailouts are basically just the Troika hand wringing about giving money to themselves while the country they are helping is bled dry. To date the IMF have made about 2.5 Billion, Germany profited to the tune of 100 Billion.

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#87

Post by jacquesm » Sun, Jun 28, 2015, 2:16 PM UTC

Flagging this, way too much un-informed nonsense in this thread, lots of heat and little or no light.

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#88

Post by pgeorgi » Sun, Jun 28, 2015, 2:16 PM UTC

smhg wrote: post #77

aikah wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While I am certainly sympathetic to the Greeks for the hardships they have faced and will undoubtedly face in the years to come, it is incredibly unfair to deny the Greeks' own responsibility in all this. Nobody is denying that fact. But it seems you are forgetting that Greece made a lot of tough decisions for its people when asked by its creditors to "reform" yet it is just not sustainable, it's like asking the gr…

> And who do you think helped cook the books? Goldman Sachs Did GS get any "punishment" for this? And does this take away all guilt from Greece? > The euro is an insane experiment anyway. It cannot work. Too many structural and economical differences between euro countries. As someone without an economics background, I'm interested to know what these insurmountable differences are?

> Did GS get any "punishment" for this?

I guess the punishment is that former GS executive Mario Draghi now runs the ECB.

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#89

Post by pjc50 » Sun, Jun 28, 2015, 2:22 PM UTC

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #69

What kind of capital controls? in this situation it is quite an oxymoron. With a different currency you can control the exchange rate or limit how much one is allowed to exchange, however Greece still has the same internal currency - the Euro. You don't have a Greek euro only - its the same currency. To me all these conflicting reports smell like panic; decision makers just don't know what to do now, and the BBC does…

Cyprus imposed capital controls while remaining in the Euro. Restrictions on bank transfers and cash crossing the border.

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#90

Post by pjc50 » Sun, Jun 28, 2015, 2:23 PM UTC

mafribe wrote: post #14

themartorana wrote: post #4

As I understand it, one of the major underlying issues this whole time (aside from the silliness of trying to integrate Greece's economy with Germany's) was the ECB's refusal to act as the lender of last resort. This seems like an affirmation of that. If Greece exits the Euro, I wonder if that will embolden other countries to do the same.

The ECB has effectively acted as a lender of last resort to Greece for a looong time (just look at ELA [1] for example), although for political reasons this fact has been sugar-coated so as not to scare the electorate in states that pay for Greece (and are now beginning to see what has been clear to anyone who looked at the figures, namely that the money is gone!). Greece was effectively bankrupt years ago. The main…

Greece is now able to run a primary surplus: revenue > expenditure. However, revenue < expenditure + interest payments.