Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hypothetical question: an asteroid is hurtling towards Earth. You don't know for sure if it will hit, but you're pretty sure that if it does hit, it will be exceedingly bad. As the supreme authority on Earth, what resources are you willing to sacrifice to try and blow it up or divert it? edit: Never mind, I read your answer up above. Well, anyway, a judgment call.
Yeah, definitely a judgment call. It sounds like a really interesting idea for a computer game: you're the president of the world, and an asteroid may or may not be going to hit the planet in so many years. Can you bring the planet's resources to bear in time to prevent it? Can you develop the technology and send the mission without bankrupting society and causing mass unrest? Can you delay that preparation and devel…
Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here
81–89 of 89 posts
Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
> But it's like an ant trying to trip an elephant. I think this is the wrong way to look at this. It's not about "are we powerful enough" or "are we big enough" it's not about size or power. Even very small insignificant things can and do have quite a large impact. It's more about impacting a system in a way it's ill equipped to compensate for. One of the more recent theories of the cause of the worst extinction leve…
Frankly, I think the earth's ecosystems are incredibly robust and able to compensate for more than we can imagine. Regarding the "farting bacteria" theory (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist), hey, who knows, maybe that happened. But it's surely a stretch to say that it probably did. And even if it did, look at the incredible biodiversity that came to exist afterward! Why are we (or some people) so worried?
"Sure, most humans will die, but just imagine how great all the biodiversity will be after a few million years! Won't that be great!" Maybe some crazy Peta people would think that, but otherwise I think biodiversity is hardly a compelling argument for people that starve as a result of any changes to the planet.
Obviously life would survive just about damn near anything, and has in the past, but at what cost, and in what form?
The questions aren't "are humans capable of damaging the earth to the point that threatens humans ability to survive on earth" because that's definitely a yes. It's more of a question of whether we are already or not. If we purposely wanted to destroy the earth we could, for example global thermonuclear war, engineered plagues, etc. We could absolutely make the planet uninhabitable for ourselves, no question there. So the whole "are we big enough" simply doesn't make sense.
Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here
#83However, humans are quite omnivorous and have a really widely spread population...
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/life/dinosaurs-other-exti...
Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm from India, and the ill effects of over population are blatantly obvious to us in every day life. Trust me its not just food production, with scale every single thing that is needed to bring the food to your mouth has to increase. This includes fuel/energy spent or any other resource to make this happen, that in turn drives up emissions and so on... In fact everything that is needed to sustain that population has…
I guess what I'm trying to say is, is the problem that the population is too high, or is the problem that infrastructure and economy has not developed along with the population?
Greater Tokyo is home to about 37 million people. California's population is about 39 million people and Canada's population is about 35 million people.
This suggests that the Earth could easily sustain 7 billion human beings, and then some. There is certainly enough land available. But consider some the problems we are facing today - including but not limited to - unequal distribution of resources (and a finite supply of these resources), people starving to death (at a rate of 21,000 people each day according to a poster in this thread) despite producing enough food to feed everyone on the planet and many (most?) people on Earth still living in abject poverty.
Theoretically, after radically reorganizing the economy and radically reducing consumption in the wealthy nations, housing, feeding and clothing 7 billion people is certainly possible, if not very probable. But Earth's 7 billion people living a consumer capitalist lifestyle is, unless I am missing something, simply not physically possible. It's often said that for everyone on Earth to live like Americans and Western Europeans we would need an additional three planet Earth's worth of resources. I have no idea how accurate this is but as a species we cling to our consumer lifestyles knowing that it's responsible for many deaths and much misery in many parts of the world. If the consequences of global warming are as dire as many scientists claim, we'd rather jeopardize our species' very existence on this planet before seriously reducing our consumption levels.
Where was I going with this again? Overpopulation, right. It seems to me humans will choose instant gratification no matter what the consequences are. If it's not happening to me, right now, it's not happening. Nobody starving around here. The weather's nice too and the stores are well stocked. Oh, and the Internet, I have that too. In other words we are behaving like junkies. Yeah I could try quitting and living a productive lifestyle but you know I have enough dope stashed away and money to buy more when that runs out..and getting dope sick really, really sucks. I'm not a masochist dude and frankly I can afford to get high and not think about tomorrow or next week or whatever. I'll deal with that shit when and if I have to.
What blows me away is that China's small but growing middle class already includes more people than the entire population of the United States. I wonder where China sees itself in 15, 20, 30, 100 years? Unlike Western cultures, Chinese culture takes a long view and is much more prepared to sacrifice short-term gain or gratification for long-term gain. Or at least that was the common perception. From where I'm sitting it looks like humanity is on the brink of self-destruction unless something compels us to radically alter our preferred lifestyle or, even less likely, technology steps in to save the day. Really, I have no idea how things will actually play out. But humans suddenly embracing selfless altruism and self-sacrifice...nah, I just can't see it happening.
Well, that was 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back. Gave me a lot to think about though. Why am I talking to myself again? -
Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
> But now, when it supposedly happens for a sixth time, it's our fault. Well, current thinking is that the dinosaurs went extinct when a meteorite hit the earth. Absent a large rock or other large-scale disaster, the rate of species disappearing really does need explanation.
What about the other four times? Is it not possible that there are natural forces and cycles at work, far larger than we can comprehend or control? The climate is our fault, the species are our fault--everything is humanity's fault, clearly. I guess we should all go live on the asteroids where there's nothing but rock. But then we'd be guilty of ruining a perfectly good asteroid belt... So I guess the "greenest" solu…
http://lesswrong.com/lw/iu/mysterious_answers_to_mysterious_...
Also, http://lesswrong.com/lw/iv/the_futility_of_emergence/ .
Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, is the problem that the population is too high, or is the problem that infrastructure and economy has not developed along with the population?
That's an interesting question. Greater Tokyo is home to about 37 million people. California's population is about 39 million people and Canada's population is about 35 million people. This suggests that the Earth could easily sustain 7 billion human beings, and then some. There is certainly enough land available. But consider some the problems we are facing today - including but not limited to - unequal distribution…
Your talking about China and their long-term vs. short-term view is interesting. I wonder if that is actually part of the problem. Saying that something is for "the greater good" or "the long-term good" can be used to justify both horrific atrocities and gradual injustices. Combined with an evil government wanting to maintain the status quo and continue exploiting its people, it seems like a recipe for disaster--and that seems to be the case.
Related to that, I think history demonstrates that centralized planning and control doesn't work (outside of the military). We humans think we can understand how enormous, complex, interrelated, global systems work, and that we can predict the future--but we can't. We can only predict the weather a few days ahead, and that far from perfectly. We certainly can't predict our own behavior.
In contrast, what does work--as far as creating prosperity--is decentralization and self-determination. One reason, I think, is that it is easier to make plans and predictions on a smaller scale. Another is that self-determination helps motivate people, leading to entrepreneurship, research, etc. But centralized planning and control has the opposite effect, demotivating people--another effect that UBI would have. That then requires bread and circuses--something we have in spades today with electronic media.
I would respectfully caution you against vilifying capitalist, consumer nations and populaces. It does seem true that less-developed nations are exploited through cheaper labor and fewer regulations, but on the other hand, if all of those jobs were pulled back domestically, how would that affect the third-world? I don't think anyone knows whether that would actually result in an improvement in their living conditions--although it would surely reduce the unemployment rate in the first-world ones.
But my point is that the way you talk about consumers being junkies implies that innocent people who are simply living normal lives in their respective places are responsible for poverty and hunger around the world. The truth is that those nations were in poverty and hunger hundreds of years ago, before these consumer, capitalist nations became prosperous. And prosperous, first-world nations do tremendous charity work, feeding the hungry, helping the sick, and helping the poor in undeveloped nations.
It just sounds like a guilt trip against prosperous nations. And while there are some overly wealthy people in control of giant corporations who exploit people all over the world, the average person living in a first-world country is not causing hunger and poverty around the world. In fact, they often do a lot to help it.
But this "capitalism is evil and consumers are guilty" narrative is popular now. The truth is that people have the capacity for evil, and power tends to corrupt. Capitalism at least compartmentalizes the potential for evil, compared to centralized forms of government and economy like communism. Although globalization and technology are having their own effects on it. Nothing is stable--the system is in constant flux. That's another reason we can't really understand it, and another reason to compartmentalize.
As for us being on the brink of self-destruction--I honestly don't understand that idea. As technology develops, our ability to live efficiently and overcome a wider range of problems increases. Nuclear annihilation seems less likely than before.
Some people are still living in hunger and poverty. That has always been the case. It always will be. Why? Because evil exists. Because there will always be evil governments who oppress and exploit their people.
That does not mean that the entire human race is going to cease to exist. That's just ridiculous. That's absurd, sky-falling propaganda and fearmongering.
What you should be asking yourself is, why are some people pushing that FUD? The answer is simple: as I said, evil exists, people want to control and exploit others, and the cheapest way to do that is to convince people that they are responsible for killing us all, and therefore need to submit to their new overlords who will avert the crisis of global cooling/global warming/climate change/mass extinction/economic collapse/economic injustice/etc. Propaganda is cheaper than weapons, so convincing people to willingly submit is more cost-effective than forcing them to.
Don't fall for it. Don't fall into their trap.
Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
What about the other four times? Is it not possible that there are natural forces and cycles at work, far larger than we can comprehend or control? The climate is our fault, the species are our fault--everything is humanity's fault, clearly. I guess we should all go live on the asteroids where there's nothing but rock. But then we'd be guilty of ruining a perfectly good asteroid belt... So I guess the "greenest" solu…
> Is it not possible that there are natural forces and cycles at work, far larger than we can comprehend or control? True possible, but where does that theory lead us? http://lesswrong.com/lw/iu/mysterious_answers_to_mysterious_... Also, http://lesswrong.com/lw/iv/the_futility_of_emergence/ .
Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
Frankly, I think the earth's ecosystems are incredibly robust and able to compensate for more than we can imagine. Regarding the "farting bacteria" theory (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist), hey, who knows, maybe that happened. But it's surely a stretch to say that it probably did. And even if it did, look at the incredible biodiversity that came to exist afterward! Why are we (or some people) so worried?
The animals that don't survive mass extinction events don't benefit from the subsequent biodiversity, that's why. I'm not of the opinion that we're facing such a dire situation as alarmists like the guy that wrote this are suggesting, but simply pointing out that it simply doesn't matter that some species will survive or that even humans will survive if the vast majority don't. "Sure, most humans will die, but just i…
Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
The animals that don't survive mass extinction events don't benefit from the subsequent biodiversity, that's why. I'm not of the opinion that we're facing such a dire situation as alarmists like the guy that wrote this are suggesting, but simply pointing out that it simply doesn't matter that some species will survive or that even humans will survive if the vast majority don't. "Sure, most humans will die, but just i…
Obviously nuclear weapons could make the planet uninhabitable. That's not the point, and it's a form of reductio ad absurdum.
My entire point was that the line of reasoning that we're not big enough to impact the planet is nonsense since not only do smaller things than us impact the planet, but there's indisputable methods we are capable of rendering the planet uninhabitable.