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Welcome to America: Here's Your Linux Computer

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Re: Welcome to America: Here's Your Linux Computer

#81
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~95% of the developers I know in the Bay Area use MacBook Pros. The underlying Unix base Apple runs on is nothing to scoff at and the majority of things someone learns about the command line on a linux machine will be the same on a OSX machine. I'm surprised you point out iDevices, what we should be worried about is keeping them away from the Windows ecosystem.

Apple is more dangerous to Unix culture than Microsoft ever was because the rate at which Apple screws it's own customers and developers is much, much higher than Microsoft. OS X is also a sickly sweet gateway drug to living their iDevice lockdown lifestyle. They are continually doing things to lock down OS X with secret APIs that only Apple can use and that 95% you're talking about will one day figure out who Apple…

Yes I would agree the core unix system macs use is fine but gui and the rest of the god awful stuff apple have added in a jerybuilt way.

I have totally fallen out of love with apple nice to look at shit to use for profesionals.

Re: Welcome to America: Here's Your Linux Computer

#82
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have found NetworkManager to be no more difficult to use than setting up networking in Windows. For me, for simple cases, it tends to just work; for more complicated cases with multiple interfaces, it takes some fiddling but can be made to work as well; and pretty similar to the amount of fiddling on Windows. I've found OS X to require less fiddling for some of the simpler and moderately complex cases, but also hav…

It always "just works" at first. The problems start creeping in after a few weeks or months, when NetworkManager inexplicably vomits all over itself with dropped connections, unexplained failures to connect to wireless networks, and duplicate wireless entries (among many, many other things) when the underlying components (namely, wpa_supplicant) work perfectly fine on their own on the same hardware.

Are you trying to imply every OS doesn't face issues like these? A simple google search of "wifi broken after upgrade [insert OS]" will get you thousands of results.

I'd say I had worse wifi issues with Windows than Linux.

Re: Welcome to America: Here's Your Linux Computer

#83

"Remember that shitty computer we got when we were first came to the US?" -- Kids, recounting this experience in 15 years

I'm typing this on a core duo laptop manufactured in March 2010. It has 2Gb RAM, an SSD that I fitted myself, Intel integrated graphics and wifi. It runs any Linux OS fine, and can run quite demanding applications. Gnome 3 remains responsive with 10 windows from 4 applications open. CPU usage is relatively low, peaking at 60 to 70% from around 15% when I move or resize Firefox windows with a lot of javascript content.

What do you think is shitty about the donated PC?

Re: Welcome to America: Here's Your Linux Computer

#84

I have to admit I'm surprised to find that anyone is still trying to make desktop Linux work for normal people, i.e. non-programmers who aren't free-software fanatics. I think to myself, don't they realize that it's pointless, that the year of the Linux desktop will never come, that Linux will always be the distant third-place desktop OS? More constructively, I wonder if recent Linux distros and desktop environments…

> More constructively, I wonder if recent Linux distros and desktop environments actually run better on 10-year-old hardware than Windows 7.

This depends entirely on the desktop environment / window manager.

The machine described in the article uses Xfce. As a real-world example of its low requirements, I very recently setup an old Dell laptop running openSUSE 13.2 with Xfce; said laptop has a single-core processor and somewhere between 512 and 1024 megabytes of RAM (I forget the exact number). Runs like a champ, while a "modern" version of Windows would - in my experience - choke even with much more resources at its disposal. I've also run Xfce-based setups on even weaker hardware, though at that point you start to run more heavily into performance issues.

You can go even lighter than this, of course, by switching to a plain window manager instead of a full-fledged desktop environment. Tiny Core Linux, for example, uses FLWM (a lightweight FLTK-based window manager); combined with its use of busybox instead of the GNU userland, it's able to run on as little as an i486 and 42MB RAM. That's a bit on the extreme end, though, but going a bit bigger than that, I've had good experiences with Openbox (and similarly lightweight window managers) on a full GNU/Linux system running on systems with Pentium II processors and less than 256MB RAM.

Heavier desktop environments like GNOME, Unity, and KDE certainly have additional performance impacts, especially due to their heavy reliance on compositor effects. However, in most circumstances, a system with 1-2GB RAM and a mid-200x single or dual core processor will handle these fine. In the case of KDE, you can also turn off desktop effects, thus reducing computational overhead even further.

In the Windows world, you can generally get a system comfortably to the same realm by turning of Aero (in the case of Windows 7). I'm not sure what the customization options are for Windows 8/8.1/10, but I expect the option for a "Windows Classic" look/feel still exists, and I further suspect that it would allow some additional usability. However, in my experience, Windows is quite prone to slowing down over time; even with routine maintenance (defragging non-solid-state drives, running CCleaner, etc.), performance will typically degrade over several months to a year after installation. For newer hardware, this isn't a huge problem, but for older hardware, this becomes a significant obstacle to usability that GNU/Linux and BSD systems don't typically have.

Re: Welcome to America: Here's Your Linux Computer

#85
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~95% of the developers I know in the Bay Area use MacBook Pros. The underlying Unix base Apple runs on is nothing to scoff at and the majority of things someone learns about the command line on a linux machine will be the same on a OSX machine. I'm surprised you point out iDevices, what we should be worried about is keeping them away from the Windows ecosystem.

Didn't you hear? Windows is getting SSH.

Microsoft also open sourced .NET, released Visual Studio Code text editor on all platforms and even allowed users to select open formats (.odt and similar) as defaults in the web version of their Office 365. It all happened in one year.

They're definitely making more than one step in the right direction.

Re: Welcome to America: Here's Your Linux Computer

#86
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always "just works" at first. The problems start creeping in after a few weeks or months, when NetworkManager inexplicably vomits all over itself with dropped connections, unexplained failures to connect to wireless networks, and duplicate wireless entries (among many, many other things) when the underlying components (namely, wpa_supplicant) work perfectly fine on their own on the same hardware.

Are you trying to imply every OS doesn't face issues like these? A simple google search of "wifi broken after upgrade [insert OS]" will get you thousands of results. I'd say I had worse wifi issues with Windows than Linux.

This isn't a "oh no, I upgraded and it broke". This is a case of "oh no, it simply stopped working properly without any perceptible cause".

Yes, I'm fully aware how broken Windows' wifi implementation is. NetworkManager, however, tends to make the Windows equivalent look wonderful in comparison.

And yes, every operating system has problems. That's not my point. My point is that we (the free-software-loving community) can do better than the current state of NetworkManager. It's the one pain point that seems to be pervasive across GNU/Linux distributions, and pretending that "oh, every operating system's wireless stack is broken, so we shouldn't be worried" is delusional. Even if NetworkManager is "just as bad" as the others, why shouldn't we be striving to make something better?

Re: Welcome to America: Here's Your Linux Computer

#87
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you trying to imply every OS doesn't face issues like these? A simple google search of "wifi broken after upgrade [insert OS]" will get you thousands of results. I'd say I had worse wifi issues with Windows than Linux.

This isn't a "oh no, I upgraded and it broke". This is a case of "oh no, it simply stopped working properly without any perceptible cause". Yes, I'm fully aware how broken Windows' wifi implementation is. NetworkManager, however, tends to make the Windows equivalent look wonderful in comparison. And yes, every operating system has problems. That's not my point. My point is that we (the free-software-loving community)…

Well I've never had any of the problems you're experiencing on Linux in the past 3 years. Only issue I've had was a driver not being included by default. I've had issues on OS X and Windows though, and they put billions of dollars into their operating systems. So if they can't get it right, then maybe the problems go beyond the code and into the actual hardware?

Re: Welcome to America: Here's Your Linux Computer

#88

"Remember that shitty computer we got when we were first came to the US?" -- Kids, recounting this experience in 15 years

My neighbor gave me an Apple II+ he had bought from a yardsale and never used. I was pretty stoked. This was in 1999, and the computer was already probably 18 years old.

Re: Welcome to America: Here's Your Linux Computer

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this mentioned a lot but what actually is the problem with NetworkManager that people complain about?

It's a buggy pile of shit, for starters. Constantly drops network connections, will frequently flood your network history with multiple duplicate entries for no apparent reason, will often mysteriously fail to connect to a wireless network for whatever reason even though others work fine (and other devices can connect to the wireless network in question without issue - even other NetworkManager-using ones)... that so…

OK I must be really lucky. I find NetworkManager just works. It does ask for my admin password when it doesn't need it but I find that if I just ignore that prompt then everything is fine.

Re: Welcome to America: Here's Your Linux Computer

#90

"Remember that shitty computer we got when we were first came to the US?" -- Kids, recounting this experience in 15 years

I'm typing on the highest end MBPr you can buy, but my first computer was a 286 with DOS and a handful of programs - this was just after Windows 95 came out, so it was quite shitty for the day. However, no computer has been quite as magical as that one. While I get paid good money to produce code every day, and I think it's damn good code, I don't feel nearly as productive as I did when I was learning to write QBasic…

Likewise, typing on 2014 Mac Air currently, but my family's first computer was a Commodore VIC20 (I learned BASIC on that) and some years later my dad got me my own computer, an XT (8086) with a 20MB HD (how will I use all that space?!).

I loved both of those computers more than any I've had since.

Now I have a daughter. She won't be getting a Mac. She'll be getting an old box with some flavor of Linux installed and she's going to learn how to really use a computer (only if she's willing and interested, of course). The apps and windows will be there, but I am primarily going to focus teaching her command line and code. Otherwise it's just a gadget and a lot harder to love.

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