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White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

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Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an overly cynical view. The vast majority of laws are used positively. The are the foundation of this country. When they are abused it makes headlines (sometimes). When everyone gets to work and back safely and can afford to pay the mortgage and buy a big screen, it's just business as usual.

I'm asking that based on what I've heard from a friend who runs a VC backed company. He said he needed VC largely because an incumbent in his category decided to sue him rather than compete. The lawsuit was rather frivolous, but when you get a bunch of people with a dim view of computer programming involved, then you need lawyers. And lawyers are EXPENSIVE. They are much much much more expensive than computer program…

That's a pretty nightmarish scenario, and I sympathize with your friend. However, it does nothing to convince me that most laws are used for evil.

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#82
post #40

On the one hand, this would have serious implications for compatible FOSS reimplementations of proprietary APIs, such as Wine, libc, emulators, etc. On the other hand, this would make it far easier to enforce copyleft licenses like the GPL. I'm one of the people who provided text and examples filed in the EFF's amicus brief against, and on balance I'm not a fan of stricter copyright like this, but it's interesting to…

I'd be curious to hear RMS's stance on the issue, but I'm guessing he would agree with Oracle. http://clisp.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/clisp/clisp/doc/Why-...

That's not the same issue.

He's talking about distributing code that is not functional unless linked with a GPL library. Not about distributing code that replaces such GPL library.

Oracle is basically saying that you can not write a compatible implementation of Java.

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#83
post #45
post #5

s/^\([a-zA-Z_]*\)(\(.*\))$/ggl_\1(\2)/ ?? This ruling sounds horrible... very curious to hear point-of-view of people who think otherwise. Edit: my regexp joke is mangled by markup, but who cares ? Edit: fixed regexp display (not that it affects joke).

I don't know if I'm failing to read regexes or failing to see the humor. Can someone explain/kill the joke for me?

The API is just a signature for calling the function -- I was joking that instead of

  screen_draw(int x, int y);
what Google could do is:

  ggl_screen_draw(int x, int y);
and say "New API -- they've got screen_draw(), we have ggl_screen_draw()".

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#84
(To rehash what I said on Twitter...)

I don't think this is as bad as the headlines make it sound.

Here's a direct link to the brief in case you can't find it in the article (I couldn't):

http://computemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Google...

While the DoJ does fully agree with Oracle on the question of copyrightability, the brief goes into some length about its belief that interoperability issues would be appropriate and relevant to a fair use argument - fair use being the question that was never decided in the original trial due to a hung jury, and AFAIK would be subject to appeals regarding the legal standard anyway. For example, it states: "Interoperability and lock-in concerns like those raised by petitioner can appropriately be considered as part of fair-use analysis."

Now, if you're FOSS Patents, you take the one sentence where the DoJ uncritically repeats a claim about interoperability that's been made several times in the record and never really contested, as part of its restatement of the facts, and you extrapolate it into something "damning" for Google's entire fair use argument:

http://www.fosspatents.com/2015/05/us-dept-of-justice-finds-...

The claim is: "The Android platform uses the Java programming language, but petitioner purposely designed Android not to be compatible with the Java platform or interoperable with Java programs." I'll get to that in a bit.

Mr. Mueller argues that the discussion on the relevance of fair use is just window dressing and that "the U.S. government has also concluded that Google can't make a 'fair use' argument based on compatibility or interoperability because of the specifics of this case". Based, as far as I can tell, only on that sentence (and a repetition later), never mind that the brief also explicitly mentions that Google's argument about programmer fluency (i.e. even if Android isn't compatible with Java software, it avoids lock-in by letting programmers use their existing skills) is relevant to fair use... or the fact that the issue which is supposedly pivotal is only mentioned in passing... or that the appeals judgement which Google is trying to get overruled already states, and the brief quotes, that there are not yet "sufficient factual findings" regarding the questions involved in fair use - for the DoJ to actually be rejecting Google's fair use argument, it would have to be supposing that there are already sufficient findings, without actually saying so.

So much for that.

But let's get back to that statement, about Android not being compatible with Java programs. If you're like me, you found it absurd on its face when it first showed up in the appeals judgement, because while Android is not compatible with entire JME applications, it is compatible with many Java libraries and with non-UI code, which in reality is extremely important if you're trying to port your Java codebase to Android. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that Google can't really start an argument over it, because Oracle made these contentions at trial and Google did not contest them then. I fail to understand how Google's lawyers allowed such a misleading claim to reach a jury when it did - maybe, as non-programmers, they didn't fully understand the issue either. But in any case, if the Supreme Court rejects Google's case and there is a new trial on fair use, Google will have a chance to start fresh with the whole line of reasoning.

It will arguably be better for all of us if the Supreme Court accepts the case anyway and decides Oracle has indeed failed at the first hurdle - that Google has not copied something copyrightable in the first place - because the more uncertainty there is around clean room reimplementations in general, the more people will be discouraged from working on such projects, decreasing interoperability. Also, fair use is partially a question of fact (as opposed to law) and thus for a jury, and while I wouldn't trust judges these days to truly understand the facts and actual practices around software issues, as opposed to making analogies that act like a funhouse mirror... I trust randomly selected juries even less. But in reality, the applicability of copyrightability vs. fair use is a relatively arcane question that will be decided in part by however the statute happens to be worded, and Oracle getting to the next hurdle instead is not the end of the world.

Also, even if the lack of compatibility with entire applications is (implicitly or explicitly) found critical in such an argument, projects like Wine which are more principled about compatibility and do run entire existing applications will have some wiggle room. So don't despair...

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#85

On the one hand, this would have serious implications for compatible FOSS reimplementations of proprietary APIs, such as Wine, libc, emulators, etc. On the other hand, this would make it far easier to enforce copyleft licenses like the GPL. I'm one of the people who provided text and examples filed in the EFF's amicus brief against, and on balance I'm not a fan of stricter copyright like this, but it's interesting to…

Emulators are a tricky one because they often require a BIOS file which does break copyright.

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#86
post #67
post #19

"declaring code and the structure, sequence, and organization of the API packages are entitled to copyright protection." Would this apply to REST APIs too? Someone needs to explain to them that that would be like being able to copyright how files are organised in a drawer, how books are organised on shelves in a Library, how a book is indexed, how departments in a company are named, how streets are numbered, how camp…

> Would this apply to REST APIs too? I wouldn't think so. REST APIs are just called APIs, but they're really communication protocols. As those don't have a fixed description (i.e. you can describe the same protocol in different words) -- unlike APIs -- they are not copyrightable. For good or bad, APIs aren't just a description of how to do something. They are fixed. If you write down how files should be organized in…

As far as I can tell, the fixed form of an API has only two purposes/aspects:

First, naming. The naming of things allows them to be used by programmers. You could replace every unique identifier with a random dictionary word and the API would still work, although nobody would want to use it.

Second, structure(/sequence/organization). The structure could be transformed arbitrarily with the constraint that the operational aspects continue to behave unchanged. The only possible impacts, then, are that one structure is easier to use than another, or performs better than another; those are functional (in the general sense, not in the programming sense) differences, therefore should not be copyrightable.

Not everything that is fixed is copyrightable. It has to have creative spark, and the creative spark cannot be in the service of functionality. (Arguably, if it's in the service of functionality it's not creative at all, even if it naïvely seems like it is, because such "creativity" is indistinguishable from advanced-enough soft-AI optimization methods, with either performance or A/B testing for usability as the metric)

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#87

What does this mean for android?

If the White House position is successful, it means Android as open source software is finished. It may go on as proprietary, maybe.

It also means SQL, C, C++, POSIX, and more stuff that I can count are forbiden land for open source, and every company making products that include or derivate from them own a non-negotiable unknow amount to some party.

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#88
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be curious to hear RMS's stance on the issue, but I'm guessing he would agree with Oracle. http://clisp.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/clisp/clisp/doc/Why-...

That's not the same issue. He's talking about distributing code that is not functional unless linked with a GPL library. Not about distributing code that replaces such GPL library. Oracle is basically saying that you can not write a compatible implementation of Java.

I assume RMS would say that Java is non-free, and that the best move here would be to create a free compiler and runtime -- i.e. a new language.

This stands to reason, as one of the first things RMS did in his efforts to advance Free Software was create a free compiler (gcc) and a free editor (emacs).

He might note that gcc is not meant to replace all other languages. It is just an example of a well-made and libre compiler.

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#89
post #42

What can we do? Is there a place we can (as an economic sector) throw money to make this happen? Fucking hell. EDIT: Thanks Obama! "The Justice Department is weighing in on the hot-button intellectual property dispute between Google and Oracle, telling the Supreme Court that APIs are protected by copyright. The Obama administration's position means it is siding with Oracle and a federal appeals court that said applic…

The current posture of this case is a petition for certiorari (Google asking the Supreme Court to hear its appeal). These are not merits briefs (about who should win) because the Supreme Court hasn't agreed to hear it yet. They might decline to hear it and then it would go back to a lower court for further proceedings in the underlying case, but with arguably an adverse precedent out of the Federal Circuit on the boo…

Slight correction regarding the part saying that 'anyone' may file one: "An amicus curiae brief may be filed only by an attorney admitted to practice before this Court as provided in Rule 5."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/supct/rule_37

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#90
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Con: all the BSDs and Linux are now owned by whoever most recently picked up the POSIX APIs. ReactOS and WINE are now illegal. SQL is the private property of IBM. Pro: I guess if you hate Google because you love Steve Jobs or something it looks like a win.

Quick question - do you feel the need to associate this to Apple because of your deep personal hatred for that company, or for your deep abiding love for Google? Or was it neither, and you just like using rhetorical devices to bolster your weak points?

You're reading far too much subtext there. He's "pro" was just a flippant way of saying "there isn't any positive to come from this aside the super shallow brand-loyalty reasons"
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