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Matrix HiFi – Blind testing high end full equipment

matrixhifi.com

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Re: Matrix HiFi – Blind testing high end full equipment

#81
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically my set up too. My advice to anyone looking to get started is to just buy the most expensive speakers you can afford (used market is good for this), pickup an older amp for peanuts on eBay that can power said speakers, and some bargain bin cables from RadioShack.

I'm actually in the market for a new pair of speakers, and the only objective advice I've seen is spending more gets you better speakers. While it must be true in some sense, price as an indicator of quality seems like a terrible idea because it's so easily gamed through marketing. The landscape of local competition seems quite limited (Best Buy seems to dominate everything with B&W and ML), so it feels there's no wa…

How will you be using your speakers and what's your price range?

If you really don't know where to start, I could probably suggest something.

I've gotten great recommendations from Don Lindich. I tipped him $20 via PayPal some years back because of all his great advice.

He is/was a newpaper columnist and has some Internet presence. He is honest, and focused on value for money, and has personally tried and reviewed thousands of products.

http://www.soundadviceblog.com

Better speakers do cost more -- there is fundamental physics there, which is NOT the case for amplifiers or cables. But still, you will find easily 5x variation in price for roughly equal "quality". So even though you should spend most of your money on speakers, it's NOT the case that simply spending more gets you better quality.

Re: Matrix HiFi – Blind testing high end full equipment

#82
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently bought the equipment to do a similar adaptive-audio job for my living room music / home-theater setup. I have the usual multi-decade collection of once-fashionable home stereo equipment, some in use, some collecting dust in the basement. I decided I needed a bit more bass to enjoy more thoroughly the gunshots and explosions of gameplay and epic action films. I listened to a stereophile friend eager to give…

EQ itself adds distortion. You may end up with flat characteristic, but poor sound quality. Amplifier designers are avoiding capacitors in signal path to minimize harmonic distortion. Now imagine you would put such a beast as EQ in the path...

I understand this argument, but I choose to treat it lightly it in real life because I am mostly interested in the sound I get in my own living room with my own real equipment making sounds for my skeptical human ears. There is a large and creative cohort of audiophiles generating and repeating numerous claims about audio. I cannot really credit many of these claims because they cannot to be reproduced in blind ABX tests, much like the spirits of the departed or the spoon-benders of yore. In truth, the presence of a side-table for my refreshments has a far larger and more measurable effect on the sound I hear than many of the possibly apocryphal sonic indecencies of the electronic components in front of me.

To address your point directly, equalization (the feature of the Behringer DEQ 2496 I am using and discussing) does change the incoming signal, or it would not be a very useful audio component. My hands-on experience with oscilloscopes and digital audio analysis suites indicates that equalization does induce phase changes in the signal – you can see that by comparing input and output signals, or alternatively by doing the simple math that creates band equalization in the digital domain. These phase changes are pretty much unavoidable by-products of the audio filtering process, whether analog or digital.

Better ears than mine sometimes claim to hear the effects of phase retardation, and I can conceive of extreme situations where this might be plausible. Those with golden ears can test themselves by doing a controlled blind ABX test with a conventional EQ system (as I am led to understand the Behringer implements) and a linear-phase EQ system, and publish results from which we all may learn. But I cannot hear phase retardation effects with current audio equipment and I would be interested to see the blind ABX tests that showed them to exist at all in normal human hearing. Ethan Winer has addressed the real-world impact of phase shifting in high fidelity audio on several occasions – for example:

“More to the point, phase shift occurs naturally and unavoidably in all speakers and crossovers, and in every EQ circuit, with no obvious detriment as far as I can discern. Phase shift can be an important factor in speaker and crossover designs, but only because a tone whose frequency is near the crossover point is radiated by two speakers at once. In that case phase shift could cause the two acoustic outputs to partially cancel each other as they combine in the air in front of the speakers. But any time you stand in front of a loudspeaker and then simply take one step backward, you are inducing a large amount of phase shift at the higher frequencies.” [1]

As to the more general implication that the Behringer DEQ 2496 introduces distortion, specifically the kind of distortion I would hear and dislike, this claim may still be argued. I will say that I have not yet run the full suite of digital audio analytics on the signal coming out of the Behringer DEQ 2496, and it may (against the general practice and standards of commercial audio equipment) distort the heck out of the incoming gunshots, explosions, and piccolos. You cannot prove it by me, and if I live up to my responsibilities I will check the manufacturer’s specifications with a digital audio reference suite some quiet week in the future.

I would note, however, in case anyone else is concerned about the capacitors that may be magnifying harmonic distortion in the Behringer signal path, that its EQ process in my setup is conducted entirely in the digital domain, from SP/DIF digital input to TOSLink output. Only the infinitely delicate fingers of the Fourier transform and its ilk have touched those bits, and the reputedly foul influence of capacitors appears, if at all, downstream in the amplifier.

References

[1] From “Dispelling Popular Audio Myths” (http://ethanwiner.com/myths.html, retrieved 2015-05-11).

Re: Matrix HiFi – Blind testing high end full equipment

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently bought the equipment to do a similar adaptive-audio job for my living room music / home-theater setup. I have the usual multi-decade collection of once-fashionable home stereo equipment, some in use, some collecting dust in the basement. I decided I needed a bit more bass to enjoy more thoroughly the gunshots and explosions of gameplay and epic action films. I listened to a stereophile friend eager to give…

"When I played in a band, we had to work with the club’s sound engineer or bring our own to get a balanced sound setup before the audience showed up. The more recent gigs showcased an interesting technology, a system that generated pink noise through the actual sound system, from the original sound sources before the mixing board, all the way through power amplifiers to the speakers at front of house. The engineer pu…

I am not sure my loved ones would allow me to add 39,990 speakers to the already-intrusive 10 around the living room in order to achieve ambisonic excellence. I do not completely agree with them, although your suggested approach sounds like it might work better in the basement where I have more room and fewer shared furnishings to negotiate over. And though my days of ruling the clubs are far behind, I would gladly spend the night at one that offered rotating 3D sound fields, as you propose.

As for re-implementing the Behringer in code, I don’t think there are any significant technical barriers for a modern PC, or even a high-end mobile device. I have not used Pure Data, but if it’s adequately performant it looks like a fine platform from which to start.

My original plan was to execute the room response mapping with REW (Room Equalization Wizard) on my PC. Then I would hard-code a set of appropriate digital filters into a software plug-in that I could attach to a digital audio I/O board in a PC or equivalent. That filter system could run headless after that, since all the human interaction ends with REW.

The sorry part for my project was realizing I had (at least in part) to dedicate a general-purpose computer to a single minor use. I gave up designing this system in code when I knew I would it meant yet another little PC with suitable digital audio input / output hardware, built to sit up behind the television with all the other gear that gets turned on whenever a game, movie, or song is needed. But my weakness need not be your own.

More power to you in your future endeavors! I look forward to visiting your place once you've got your project up and running.

Re: Matrix HiFi – Blind testing high end full equipment

#84
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chadwick executive 12 That term has no Google footprint

Raudio chadwick speakers returns some relevant results. http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/40792-austr... > The Executive Monitor from Chadwick Audio Furnishings(NSW) was the top model in the Chadwick range and used a modified Etone245(300mm) unit in a rear vented transmission line enclosure with the Audax 160mm mid/range,25mm dome and an aluminium cone super tweeter. I have no idea how it compared to t…

That sounds quite familiar. I got them from my parents many years ago, and they got them new in an audio store in Sydney. I have the original brochure and manual somewhere, I'll see if I can dig them out.

Re: Matrix HiFi – Blind testing high end full equipment

#85
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that the sum of added and reduced noise is smaller in the noise cancellation than in non-noise cancellation, unless you are in an optimized environment.

The problem is that voices or crying babies will be more audible in a noisy environment when using active noise cancelling headphones because they only effectively attenuate low frequencies.

In a room with a crying baby, all pretense of an audiophile experience is gone, no matter what.

Re: Matrix HiFi – Blind testing high end full equipment

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Headphones are great for minimizing issues of room acoustics, but they are not eliminated. Many people swear by various headphone amps and DACs, but the magnitude of difference these components could possibly impart are still pitiful compared to the improvements made possible by controlling the noise floor of the room you're listening in. This is why in any situation with ambient noise (e.g. planes, trains and open p…

Active noise-cancelling is counterproductive to a neutral, balanced sound, which is what audiophiles are seeking. The noise produced to cancel out background sounds will also cancel out the music. It is better to just try to use isolating headphones (Beyerdynamic, V-Moda, higer-end Audio-Technica, Mad Dogs, etc).

> Active noise-cancelling is counterproductive to a neutral, balanced sound

NOISE is counterproductive to a neutral, balanced sound.

FTFY.

Re: Matrix HiFi – Blind testing high end full equipment

#87
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently bought the equipment to do a similar adaptive-audio job for my living room music / home-theater setup. I have the usual multi-decade collection of once-fashionable home stereo equipment, some in use, some collecting dust in the basement. I decided I needed a bit more bass to enjoy more thoroughly the gunshots and explosions of gameplay and epic action films. I listened to a stereophile friend eager to give…

EQ itself adds distortion. You may end up with flat characteristic, but poor sound quality. Amplifier designers are avoiding capacitors in signal path to minimize harmonic distortion. Now imagine you would put such a beast as EQ in the path...

> EQ itself adds distortion.

Modern digital EQ algorithms don't add any distortion worth talking about. But even in the worst case, it's still an infinitely small amount compared to the wild distortions that your room imposes on the sound.

If EQ can compensate for even a modest chunk of the room's influence, the net result is a huge drop in overall distortion.

Re: Matrix HiFi – Blind testing high end full equipment

#89

Behringer: 300W YBA: 70W ATC sensitivity: 85db A rather unfair competition.

How is it unfair? The cheap products performed as well as the expensive products.

the ATC's need at least 150Watts to perform right. So it doesn't matter if an amp is in the "high end" category if it doesn't have the watts to actually move the speakers.

Re: Matrix HiFi – Blind testing high end full equipment

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it unfair? The cheap products performed as well as the expensive products.

the ATC's need at least 150Watts to perform right. So it doesn't matter if an amp is in the "high end" category if it doesn't have the watts to actually move the speakers.

If what you said was true, this supposed lack of power would have shown up as a harmonic distortion artifact in the listening test. The fact that both systems were indistinguishable proves that neither system was suffering in any particular way.

Of course what you have said is nonsense, and shows a misunderstanding of the relationship between an amplifier and speaker. The watt rating of an amplifier simply indicates the operational range where it can perform with near-zero harmonic distortion.

The ATCs are moderately efficient 8 ohm speakers. They barely need 15 watts let alone 150 watts of power to "perform right" at tolerable listening levels. Both amps are capable of delivering ample power with plenty of reserve for transients.

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