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Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

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Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#81

Post by flycaliguy »

nyolfen wrote: post #43
sjm-lbm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since, for whatever reason, I enjoy tracking flights as a hobby, here's a couple of extra tidbits: 1) If you are in the right area, Flight Radar 24 might actually give you the equipment for free. See here: http://www.flightradar24.com/free-ads-b-equipment for info. 2) It is unlikely that even aircraft that the government desires to be secret will stop broadcasting ADS-B anytime soon, as one of the major usages is avo…

genuine question, what do you get out of this hobby? i'm not trying to sneer or trivialize it, i'm sincerely curious about what makes it interesting to people who enjoy it

Like similar hobbies, it's fun to play around with technical problem solving, numbers and data without the pressure of it being your real job. Often it's linked to a curiosity or experience from when you are young and you just find e tasks a relaxing escape from real world responsibilities. Also it's fun to belong to a community of people who enjoy technical talk.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#82

Post by nickodell »

corin_ wrote: post #75
sjm-lbm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since, for whatever reason, I enjoy tracking flights as a hobby, here's a couple of extra tidbits: 1) If you are in the right area, Flight Radar 24 might actually give you the equipment for free. See here: http://www.flightradar24.com/free-ads-b-equipment for info. 2) It is unlikely that even aircraft that the government desires to be secret will stop broadcasting ADS-B anytime soon, as one of the major usages is avo…

I know absolutely nothing about this so forgive me if I'm asking a dumb question. ADS-B broadcasts so that other planes can figure out where you are and avoid you, correct? Why can't spy planes stop broadcasting it, but then listen for other planes' ADS-B signals, and just make sure to stay away from them? That way the only crash might be between two different spy planes?

It isn't mandatory. It'll be mandatory by 2020, but for now, these planes need to broadcast ADS-B.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_dependent_surveillanc...

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#83

Post by anonu »

tomswartz07 wrote: post #2

If you're big into crowd-sourcing: There are super-inexpensive RTL-SDR dongles[1] that can be used to track airplanes such as this. I'm not a lawyer, but I've fooled around with these dongles and a few programs enough to discern that Gov't aircraft absolutely need to broadcast their info on the 1090MHz band. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to have a few people pop these up and see if they could monitor the airplanes…

There is currently no requirement for airplanes to broadcast ADS-B signals.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#84

Post by CWuestefeld »

underbluewaters wrote: post #47
beat wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are limits to jurisdiction, well defined. For example, police cannot enter your home without your permission, unless they have a warrant from a judge. So if the airplane surveillance is being used to collect and act on data that would normally require a warrant, then "jurisdiction" is not sufficient. Even having the ability to do this is problematic in the eyes of many judges and many civilians (it would be the…

I'd go further and say the nature of these new technologies changes what observations should be permitted by law enforcement, with or without a warrant. While automated license plate readers may be collecting the same information that police officers can from a public vantage point, the scale that they can be used at changes the nature of the information. Suddenly it can be used to track the movements of everyone in…

We ought to be having a deliberate debate about how to change our laws to reflect

Yes, but the powers-that-be are content to let it all happen by default, because most potential outcomes lets them win. If we just shrug and ignore it, they win. If we wait too long to take action, they can argue that the surveillance is understood and that we've grown used to it, and thus under conventional 4th Amendment analysis, there's no more expectation of privacy.

Really, the only way they can lose is by putting the question forward for debate.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#85

Post by rmxt »

diminoten2 wrote: post #76
rmxt wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure I understand your question. I do see a difference, and that's exactly what I'm pointing out. Video cameras cannot see into homes and they require their attention to be focused on a particular area. Video cameras' very nature forces them to be used in a more selective fashion. The same cannot be said for these hypothetical Stingray laden drones. Hence, they shouldn't be available for use for general "pop…

In the hypothetical situation where these drones were taking recorded video of publicly accessible areas of Baltimore ("the streets", so to speak), would you have a problem with that?

I would have a problem with that, as I still think that the PD should be required to have articuable suspicion to collect information on any and all who may be caught on camera. It's inevitable that some people caught on video camera will not be "potentially" committing a crime. Video cameras might be easier for the legal weasels to defend than the Stingrays (radio waves don't care about walls, and "oh, those people were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and too bad if they are video taped"), but I still find it personally detestable. It's ridiculous for the Baltimore City PD to have the ability to video tape the whole of the Baltimore Metro area's landscape, merely under the guise of some crowds milling about in limited downtown areas. Compare to body-cameras: I have no problem with body-cameras and their potential to capture people in all walks of life. Presumably if a police officer's body camera is going to be focused on you, then the police officer him/herself will also be there, exercising judgment and discretion regarding which people are of interest or are potentially committing a crime. The same can't be said for the use of video cameras on drones.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#86

Post by privong »

rhino369 wrote: post #79
task_queue wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we really want to tie a noose at the end of all the rope we already hand the authorities? There are tools people with power shouldn't have access to, because people with power do not have a good track record of using them in good faith.

We trust the federal government with the power to, no exaggeration, annihilate the world. If the government were going to use its power for evil, it'd go knocking on google/facebook/visa/amazon/comcast/grocery store/school/medical/whatever database to find its enemy. What do you honestly think is a bigger risk for you? Getting murdered by a criminal or the US government via drone. Cause it's like 40k:2 for the past c…

> What do you honestly think is a bigger risk for you? Getting murdered by a criminal or the US government via drone. Cause it's like 40k:2 for the past couple year.

The fact that there are bad actors in one arena does not obviate the need to push back against bad actors in other arenas. Additionally, one could argue that if the government doesn't follow its own rules, it risks undermining its authority to enforce those rules for others.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#87

Post by beat »

Karunamon wrote: post #72
beat wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then maybe we should be talking about what people (and governments) should do, rather than what they can do. Perhaps you think it's appropriate for the government to record your every step, just in case. I don't.

Perhaps, but that's an open question with a different resolution. It would take nothing short of an act of congress, possibly even constitutional amendments to redefine the current legal doctrine surrounding public and private spaces into what you suggest. Me, I find it very hard to get worked up over someone recording what I'm doing in public.

Not at all. The right to privacy, while not spelled out explicitly in the Constitution, is recognized by the Supreme Court and the basis of most modern boundaries on what government can and cannot do with regard to surveillance without a warrant. New technology that makes it possible to observe "public" behavior in ways that were previously impossible is still subject to the right to privacy, and courts may well rule it intrusive and unconstitutional.

Consider the case of license-reading cameras. Not intrusive, right? But that data, not being collected under warrant, is more or less public, at least obtainable via FOIA requests. It's already been demonstrated that this data can be used to trace someone's address (and other critical addresses, like work or favorite stores) quickly. So it's not just a matter of government collecting "public" data... it's making it available to anyone, some of whom may not have your best interests at heart.

Now, imagine you have a violent ex who might well kill you if they could find you. I know multiple people in that situation. And government surveillance data, publicly available with a little effort, could find you. Is that okay?

Don't mistake your privilege for society's needs.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#88

Post by fragmede »

nyolfen wrote: post #43
sjm-lbm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since, for whatever reason, I enjoy tracking flights as a hobby, here's a couple of extra tidbits: 1) If you are in the right area, Flight Radar 24 might actually give you the equipment for free. See here: http://www.flightradar24.com/free-ads-b-equipment for info. 2) It is unlikely that even aircraft that the government desires to be secret will stop broadcasting ADS-B anytime soon, as one of the major usages is avo…

genuine question, what do you get out of this hobby? i'm not trying to sneer or trivialize it, i'm sincerely curious about what makes it interesting to people who enjoy it

You ever look up into the sky and see an airplane and wonder about it?

Here in the future, the answer's no further than your smartphone! Where it's going, where it's from, what it's carrying, freight or passenger? If you're near an airport, how busy is the airport? Which runway is that plane landing on? How many runways are there? What size airplane can that runway handle?

Just general curiosity, really.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#89

Post by throwawayaway »

rayiner wrote: post #80
task_queue wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we really want to tie a noose at the end of all the rope we already hand the authorities? There are tools people with power shouldn't have access to, because people with power do not have a good track record of using them in good faith.

If we're assuming bad faith in the part of the government, and we assume the private sector collects all that information, then there is no point opposing surveillance efforts. It would be trivial for the government to storm a Google data center if they really wanted that information.

ok i do already. my only real concern is the CA system.

even so, there's no harm in supporting the opposition of surveillance efforts in case it might work.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#90

Post by tomswartz07 »

nyolfen wrote: post #43
sjm-lbm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since, for whatever reason, I enjoy tracking flights as a hobby, here's a couple of extra tidbits: 1) If you are in the right area, Flight Radar 24 might actually give you the equipment for free. See here: http://www.flightradar24.com/free-ads-b-equipment for info. 2) It is unlikely that even aircraft that the government desires to be secret will stop broadcasting ADS-B anytime soon, as one of the major usages is avo…

genuine question, what do you get out of this hobby? i'm not trying to sneer or trivialize it, i'm sincerely curious about what makes it interesting to people who enjoy it

Personally, I find it really cool to just scan through the frequencies and see what's out there.

I've found pagers, police car radio, taxis, satellites, and airplanes.

It's pretty neat that a $10 usb stick can allow someone to listen in on such a variety of things.

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