Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I code like a girl

volumelabs.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 169 posts

Re: I code like a girl

#81

Post by cauterized »

ajuc wrote: post #41
rmc wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes people claim that women are biologically, statistically, just not as good/interested as men at programming/technology, and point to current gender balance in tech as evidence of this ("There's a reason there's lots of male programmers, men must be just better!") Remembering some of these women, and the early history like this, is very relevant today to show that that's nonsense.

It's not nonsense. Modern women are statisticaly less interested in programming. That's because boys 20 years ago got c-64 or PC because they wanted to play games, and girls 20 years ago got barbies. Turns out barbie doesn't have the same side effects.

But as you note -- the lack of interest isn't something inherent -- it's related to early experiences and expectations.

Re: I code like a girl

#82

Post by _bfhp »

kazinator wrote: post #50

> What is now considered a male-dominated field, was once defined as “women’s work.” Once? It's naive to think that these attitudes do not persist, albeit in somewhat disguised forms, perhaps. At some universities, for instance, engineers regard CS majors as "wimps". Engineering is hard, CS is soft. Moreover, think about how there is an attitude that some "softer" or "easier" programming is lower on the pecking order…

Who says that the categorization of CS majors as wimps by engineers is related at all to CS being formerly dominated by women?

Social construction of gender will seep into dynamics at any point where something can be argued as "weaker" than another thing.

Re: I code like a girl

#83

Post by nadam »

It think this has nothing to do with gender: In those early projects those who got the biggest respect (like John Neumann) have done the intellectual heavy-lifting. Seriously, that guy was a genius. Today it is the same way: The CTO or chief scientist of an elite company gets much bigger respect than a subordinate programmer who mostly does what he/she is instructed to do. This is not a gender issue in my opinion. Women like Yahho CEO Marissa Mayer or researcher/Coursera founder Daphne Koller are much more respected than an average programer guy maybe at a mediocre company.

Re: I code like a girl

#84

Post by facepalm »

rmc wrote: post #72
slowmovintarget wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interest part is not nothing. Most women programmers I've known were on their way to something they considered better. My wife, for example, slung C++ and Java while getting her MBA in evening classes. For her programming was a path to earn a living until she got her 'real' job on the executive track. Another woman I worked with only wrote code for a while and moved on to run her father's machine shop. In both ca…

But how much of that "lack of interest" is due to the person not finding the thing interesting, or not finding the industry/their peers interesting? If there are sexists in a group, then people who are the target of that sexism are less likely to enjoy that group. As the number of women decreases in a group, then the remaining women experience more sexism. Negative feedback.

Well do you have an answer? To me it seems highly unlikely that all the women have been turned away by sexism. I remember the times when programming and computers where considered extremely unsexy and basically made you an outcast and unlikely to get a girl-friend. Computer kids back then would have been very happy to meet a girl who was interested in computer stuff.

Re: I code like a girl

#85

Post by ianstallings »

_bfhp wrote: post #60
ianstallings wrote: post #40

On the topic of equality in general - As an old man and a father of a 22 year old woman let me tell you what I've observed - women don't need your help and when you act like they need your protection you're no better than someone who treats them as weaklings. It's a fine line and imho the best bet is to just treat them as you would anyone else.

Whether or not someone is "act[ing] like [women] need [their] protection" is relative assessment and you haven't even accused anyone of fitting the description.

I reject your new grammatical protocols. RESEND in human format.

Re: I code like a girl

#86

Post by M8 »

danparsonson wrote: post #33
M8 wrote: post #4

"The only human labor noted in the press was the initial design of the machine, which was performed by men." Who gets the credit for e.g. iPhone? Chinese workers? That person who was tweaking the icons to look pixel-perfect (pre-iOS7)? CEO?

Apple does - I doubt anyone truly believes that Steve Jobs personally designed the whole iPhone; also, the Chinese workers are at least in the public consciousness - apart from the Foxconn labour controversies, each unit has 'Made in China' written on it somewhere. If as the article says the ENIAC news reports were along the lines of 'here is a machine that can calculate trajectories, and these are the men who design…

designed != implemented

Re: I code like a girl

#87

Post by ianstallings »

mrits wrote: post #48
ianstallings wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you are aware of these sayings correct? This was not the first time you've heard them, right?

Yes, I am aware. But then again I phrased my original statement to show that there was a small frequency of use of these terms. Where females (in my area) have a very high frequency of referring to each other as girls. Almost like "woman" is a formal term.

That's anecdotal at best. These are colloquialisms, they've been around well before you and I were born.

Re: I code like a girl

#88

Post by _bfhp »

nadam wrote: post #83

It think this has nothing to do with gender: In those early projects those who got the biggest respect (like John Neumann) have done the intellectual heavy-lifting. Seriously, that guy was a genius. Today it is the same way: The CTO or chief scientist of an elite company gets much bigger respect than a subordinate programmer who mostly does what he/she is instructed to do. This is not a gender issue in my opinion. Wo…

You are naming anecdotes (really just one that is relevant to the era of history in question) involving individual people, while the writer is pointing out more general trends. I'm going to sympathize with author.

Re: I code like a girl

#89

Post by sthreet »

_bfhp wrote: post #56
maaaats wrote: post #11

I've heard You punch like a girl , You drive like a girl and similar before, but never You code like a girl . Which is good, I guess.

Coding doesn't involve as much kinetic and immediate action, and I can't imagine it being infantilized. When it comes to violence, you can be weak, and so "like a girl". "Driving like a woman" I think means to drive naively, like a child, which women have generally been seen as equivalent to for thousands of years. (Edit: not that I agree with any of that, of course; it's how gender is constructed)

Now that Ip Man is a popular movie (?) is "punch like a girl" still an insult?

Re: I code like a girl

#90

Post by josefresco »

ajuc wrote: post #41
rmc wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes people claim that women are biologically, statistically, just not as good/interested as men at programming/technology, and point to current gender balance in tech as evidence of this ("There's a reason there's lots of male programmers, men must be just better!") Remembering some of these women, and the early history like this, is very relevant today to show that that's nonsense.

It's not nonsense. Modern women are statisticaly less interested in programming. That's because boys 20 years ago got c-64 or PC because they wanted to play games, and girls 20 years ago got barbies. Turns out barbie doesn't have the same side effects.

I have two girls, they play with Barbies - and do a helluva lot of other geeky /boy stuff like play Minecraft, program for fun, and get dirty outside. Stop the Barbie hate - some girls like pink and still will kick your ass.
Post reply on HN