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Fired

zachholman.com

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Re: Fired

#81

Post by Touche »

UK-AL wrote: post #78
Touche wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Getting fired" implies you did something really wrong, which makes you less desirable of a hire. It really depends if we are conflating "getting fired" with "laid off". The latter is not bad. When I hear that someone got fired it usually means they did something like break a big HR rule or caused the company to lose an important account.

I've known people who have gotten fired, and have gotten fired. 70% of the time, its politics. Basically I found out the founder of the company had been lying to me as a early hire, and I asked about it and wanted it fixed. And suddenly performance reviews went extremely negative. Stuff like that is why people get fired. Lesson Learned: Always get it written in a contact, don't trust verbal agreements. Companies only…

Can you explain? I've never had a coworker that got fired without messing up badly or just being bad at their job. Maybe I've gotten lucky that way. Would love to hear about others viewpoints.

Re: Fired

#82

Post by rcoder »

MCRed wrote: post #44

Incompetent management is a plague on the industry. And the cause of it is that programmers are relatively low status. In so many businesses, there are "business guys" who end up managing the engineering staff-- at one level or another, but too often it's the direct manager role--and these business guys are incompetent at engineering. When you don't know whether a direct report is doing good or not because you don't…

While I agree with the basic tenet that experienced developers make better direct managers for other developers, I strongly disagree that "any programmer can do it", or that "biz guys can't learn programming", much less the assertion that "business" is somehow trivially easy compared to coding.

Doing a good job as a manager is hard. You need to triangulate between a lot of disparate opinions and viewpoints, negotiate compromises, and help your team develop and advance without hurting the larger group's goals. It takes empathy, good communication, and the ability to squelch your own opinion when circumstances call for it. None of those attributes are universal in engineers.

In fact, just about everything in a startup is hard: sales, recruiting, design, marketing, etc. Pretending otherwise or asserting that only engineers have something special to contribute is IMHO toxic and short-sighted.

Re: Fired

#83

Post by mpdehaan2 »

coffee wrote: post #54

I say Congratulations! 5 years is long enough as a employee at any tech company that isn't your own (or that you have serious upside in). Take what've you learned and forge you're own path. A path with control. Yes control... If you're employed by a company you have zero control (though, good managers work hard to make you feel exactly the opposite) and you can be fired/laid off/let go at any moment, without notice -…

I was recently re-reading Clarke's Rendevous with Rama on an airplane and hit this quote: "Myron, like countless NCO’s before him, had discovered the ideal compromise between power and responsibility.”

I am a fan of this balance.

Re: Fired

#84

Post by crusso »

MCRed wrote: post #44

Incompetent management is a plague on the industry. And the cause of it is that programmers are relatively low status. In so many businesses, there are "business guys" who end up managing the engineering staff-- at one level or another, but too often it's the direct manager role--and these business guys are incompetent at engineering. When you don't know whether a direct report is doing good or not because you don't…

The real tragedy is, learning business is not hard. Any programmer can do it.

As a person who's switched back and forth between the technical person, the manager, and the business developer - I can tell you that all of the roles in the company take skill to do properly.

Re: Fired

#85

Post by crag »

sridca wrote: post #11

Back in December 2012, Julie Horvath expressed her desire to have Zach fired. I wonder if these two incidents are actually related. @Holman is my ex-partner. He was complicit in the actions of both Tom and Theresa Preston-Werner and even admitted to plotting with Theresa Preston-Werner to get women at the company fired. He should be let go from GitHub and I regret being kind to him in previous interviews. http://vall…

Who cares? The lot of them - a bunch of 5 year olds fighting in the play ground.

Don't get me wrong, harassment of any kind should be stamped out. But, this whole "scandal" has turned into something more likely to appear as a headline in a tabloid. Right next to the "OMG, Kim K changed her hair color!!!" story.

Re: Fired

#86

Post by jgmmo »

cpr wrote: post #6

Zach was a quite visible ambassador for GH, an excellent speaker and spreader of GH love and lore. Would love to hear the story behind this.

For me, he was the face of GH.

Re: Fired

#87

Post by ChuckMcM »

enraged_camel wrote: post #68
ChuckMcM wrote: post #51

I have often said that companies rarely take it personally when you decide to leave them, so don't take it personally when they decide to leave you. Easy to say and hard to do, like a lot of things in life. Mostly it is the illusion of control, you don't have it, you only have choices you can make in the face of unfolding events. At Zach points out, companies change as they grow, they are some weird strange attractor…

>>I have often said that companies rarely take it personally when you decide to leave them, so don't take it personally when they decide to leave you. Easy to say and hard to do, like a lot of things in life. People take getting fired personally because, at least in America, a person's job is a huge part of not just their self-identity, but also their social image. So when they lose that job, it's like they lose a pa…

   > at least in America, a person's job is a huge part of
   > not just their self-identity, but also their 
   > social image.
I agree with this statement, and I believe it to be wrong. Not incorrect, which would say that I thought it was false, but wrong in that it does people a disservice to themselves when they construct their self-identity in this way.

My wife is a software engineering manager, my wife is a home maker. Both true (not simultaneously) and both interpreted wildly differently externally. We were fortunate that when we had kids, either one of us could choose to stay home while the other continued to work, she opted to be that person. And she took some external heat for it from her peers, but it wasn't part of her self-identity. Looking back on that choice, pretty much everyone who knew us then and now understands that it was a better choice than that of continuing to work, however they are split nearly evenly on whether or not I could have done as well being the primary interface to the kids during their most formative years :-).

It sounded from reading Zach's essay that he didn't know if he should take it personally or not, but came around to realizing that he should not. That is a good thing and it will serve him well going forward. I think that is a great message. I hope that others reading it can avoid feeling like they lost a part of themselves when they are fired, and instead come to understand that they are all still there, just as they were before they were fired.

Re: Fired

#88

Post by rralian »

rdtsc wrote: post #63
MCRed wrote: post #44

Incompetent management is a plague on the industry. And the cause of it is that programmers are relatively low status. In so many businesses, there are "business guys" who end up managing the engineering staff-- at one level or another, but too often it's the direct manager role--and these business guys are incompetent at engineering. When you don't know whether a direct report is doing good or not because you don't…

When you interview ask how many people with MBAs and no programming experience you'll be working under. That is a good heuristic for future pain and frustration. Managers who are good engineers don't always manage well. Managers who have never been engineers are usually worse. > When you don't know whether a direct report is doing good or not because you don't understand what their doing, by definition you cannot man…

> When you interview ask how many people with MBAs and no programming experience you'll be working under.

If someone asked that, I would probably consider that a red flag, that they are mistrustful of "business types" and probably difficult to work with.

Re: Fired

#89

Post by r00fus »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #51

I have often said that companies rarely take it personally when you decide to leave them, so don't take it personally when they decide to leave you. Easy to say and hard to do, like a lot of things in life. Mostly it is the illusion of control, you don't have it, you only have choices you can make in the face of unfolding events. At Zach points out, companies change as they grow, they are some weird strange attractor…

> I have often said that companies rarely take it personally when you decide to leave them, so don't take it personally when they decide to leave you. Easy to say and hard to do, like a lot of things in life.

Yeah, but companies are full of people - and I do care about them (hopefully vice-versa).

It's never easy leaving a job, even if it's a managed transition. When it's sudden, it's even harder.

Re: Fired

#90

Post by dvanduzer »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #51

I have often said that companies rarely take it personally when you decide to leave them, so don't take it personally when they decide to leave you. Easy to say and hard to do, like a lot of things in life. Mostly it is the illusion of control, you don't have it, you only have choices you can make in the face of unfolding events. At Zach points out, companies change as they grow, they are some weird strange attractor…

I had a similar experience working with a company not quite as famous as Sun.

The most important thing an engineer can do is recognize that "manager" and "person who influences/guides your career" are not the same thing at all. The best managers are usually good mentors, but conversely bad mentors are not necessarily bad managers.

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