Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#81

Post by lsaferite » Tue, Feb 17, 2015, 2:16 PM UTC

cjslep wrote: post #66

lsaferite wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish sites would add automatic abbr tags to think like FWIW or, in this case, TANSTAAFL so those no in the know can easily mouse over and see what the hell you are saying.

"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch" from Heinlein's The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress , a highly recommended read.

Oh, I already looked it up. :) I was just realizing that it's not a hard problem to solve and sites could easily automate this, so they should. I guess you could argue that the browser could solve it as well. Or people could just write it out instead. :o

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#82

Post by ThomPete » Tue, Feb 17, 2015, 2:17 PM UTC

slfnflctd wrote: post #77

Yawn. I've been following this concept, and a wide array of very talented scientists working on it, for years now. Any of the below projects, should they ever see the light of day (you'd think out of this many, at least one will make it eventually), stands a good chance of being quite superior for this application in just about every way: http://www.eosenergystorage.com/technology-and-products/ http://www.ambri.com/t…

Very rarely the best solution wins.

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#83

Post by rplnt » Tue, Feb 17, 2015, 2:17 PM UTC

headShrinker wrote: post #60

brudgers wrote: post #23

So, where does lithium come from? It comes from the Earth, of course, but it doesn't require strip mining or blowing the tops off mountains like other resources do...most often, lithium is found in briny underground ponds. The liquid is pumped out and left to dry in the sun. TANSTAAFL https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lithium+pond+photos&iax=1&ia=image... Mining is mining. There isn't a "green" form. Tearing holes in the ear…

Also many municipalities don't allow battery 'grid-tie' with the option of 'off the grid' living. For example, Connecticut has laws which don't allow houses to have batteries that would allow a house to be self sustaining and have a connection to the grid. This is because if you have batteries which cause a back flow during a power outage to the power station, an electrical worker could get shocked down the road. The…

Why is this not an issue if you have solar cells or wind mill or whatever?

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#84

Post by TallGuyShort » Tue, Feb 17, 2015, 2:18 PM UTC

vetler wrote: post #69

headShrinker wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also many municipalities don't allow battery 'grid-tie' with the option of 'off the grid' living. For example, Connecticut has laws which don't allow houses to have batteries that would allow a house to be self sustaining and have a connection to the grid. This is because if you have batteries which cause a back flow during a power outage to the power station, an electrical worker could get shocked down the road. The…

> This is because if you have batteries which cause a back flow during a power outage to the power station, an electrical worker could get shocked down the road. Surely there is some safe way of preventing this?

I would think so, and I would hope they would implement it. Especially considering the benefits to society of having people who are more prepared and self-sufficient, I would hope that safety would be only one of the reasons they wouldn't rely on people obeying some regulation for their worker's safety.

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#85

Post by phreeza » Tue, Feb 17, 2015, 2:19 PM UTC

alex-g wrote: post #76

phreeza wrote: post #54

The 'living off the grid' angle is a red herring. The main application of this would be solving the peak load problem, ie smoothing out the load on power stations throughout the day. It is not clear to me how a LiPo batter is better suited for this than other battery types though, especially since weight is not a concern for a stationary battery in your home.

I wonder if this even needs to be something in the home. Wouldn't it also make sense to install these things, in bulk, in a place where they could service several homes? Say, at the block level. If it is part of power distribution infrastructure as opposed to a consumer product, then that simplifies some of the safety and maintenance issues; concerns like weight or volume are even less important if they are housed in…

This is being done. Power companies have shipping containers full of batteries hooked up to their grids. I have read better stories but the first thing I found googling just now is this http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-07/ausnet-trialling-new-s...

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#86

Post by lsaferite » Tue, Feb 17, 2015, 2:19 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #73

lsaferite wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd imagine in this case they are looking at the economy of scale they'll be able to gain when producing these out of the gigafactory. I'd be interested to see the $/Wh cost difference once it comes fully online.

Tesla batteries retail for $30K@85KWh, so approximately $350/Wh, Lead-acid deep discharge is about $10000/100KWh, so approximately $100/Wh. That's a pretty large gap.

Fair enough. But the pros/cons of each tech would need to be balanced against the $/Wh cost. Once the gigafactory is fully online I thought I'd read they were shooting to drop the pack cost in half? If that were true then it'd be 175 vs 100 and the pro/con list would be much more important, right?

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#87

Post by freehunter » Tue, Feb 17, 2015, 2:21 PM UTC

lsaferite wrote: post #61

brudgers wrote: post #23

So, where does lithium come from? It comes from the Earth, of course, but it doesn't require strip mining or blowing the tops off mountains like other resources do...most often, lithium is found in briny underground ponds. The liquid is pumped out and left to dry in the sun. TANSTAAFL https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lithium+pond+photos&iax=1&ia=image... Mining is mining. There isn't a "green" form. Tearing holes in the ear…

I wish sites would add automatic abbr tags to think like FWIW or, in this case, TANSTAAFL so those no in the know can easily mouse over and see what the hell you are saying.

PLMATTMETJSOW.

People Like to Make Up Abbreviations That Take More Explanation Than Just Spelling it Out Would.

SMH.

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#88

Post by lsaferite » Tue, Feb 17, 2015, 2:22 PM UTC

headShrinker wrote: post #60

brudgers wrote: post #23

So, where does lithium come from? It comes from the Earth, of course, but it doesn't require strip mining or blowing the tops off mountains like other resources do...most often, lithium is found in briny underground ponds. The liquid is pumped out and left to dry in the sun. TANSTAAFL https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lithium+pond+photos&iax=1&ia=image... Mining is mining. There isn't a "green" form. Tearing holes in the ear…

Also many municipalities don't allow battery 'grid-tie' with the option of 'off the grid' living. For example, Connecticut has laws which don't allow houses to have batteries that would allow a house to be self sustaining and have a connection to the grid. This is because if you have batteries which cause a back flow during a power outage to the power station, an electrical worker could get shocked down the road. The…

This is an issue even without battery storage. Solar and wind generation that is set up to feed excess back to the grid already has to have a way for the utilities to shut it off. This is why you have to have your setup vetted by the utility if you are feeding the grid.

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#89

Post by ceejayoz » Tue, Feb 17, 2015, 2:22 PM UTC

vetler wrote: post #69

headShrinker wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also many municipalities don't allow battery 'grid-tie' with the option of 'off the grid' living. For example, Connecticut has laws which don't allow houses to have batteries that would allow a house to be self sustaining and have a connection to the grid. This is because if you have batteries which cause a back flow during a power outage to the power station, an electrical worker could get shocked down the road. The…

> This is because if you have batteries which cause a back flow during a power outage to the power station, an electrical worker could get shocked down the road. Surely there is some safe way of preventing this?

There is. The same issue is present with home generators, and most cities require they be installed by a licensed electrician who will ensure it doesn't power the grid in an outage.

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#90

Post by acadien » Tue, Feb 17, 2015, 2:25 PM UTC

phreeza wrote: post #54

The 'living off the grid' angle is a red herring. The main application of this would be solving the peak load problem, ie smoothing out the load on power stations throughout the day. It is not clear to me how a LiPo batter is better suited for this than other battery types though, especially since weight is not a concern for a stationary battery in your home.

Isn't part of the problem that production costs for batteries are so high? I suspect this is Tesla staking claim in a market that will grow as the price of large rechargeable batteries drops. And that price drop will in large part be due to Tesla.