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Why animals eat psychoactive plants

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Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#81

Post by carb »

hristov wrote: post #40
evincarofautumn wrote: post #5

I’ve always found it fascinating that people don’t perceive socially sanctioned drugs as drugs at all. Saying “drugs and alcohol” to me is like saying “sandwiches and hamburgers”. A person can drink a cup of coffee in the morning, smoke a cigarette on their lunch break, and drink a couple glasses of wine in the evening, and the only thing that keeps them from being called a “drug addict” is that these particular drug…

You can drink two glasses of red wine every day of your life and if you are healthy adult male of average weight, this will likely extend your life and improve your health. For a woman it is down to one glass. You can drink a glass of coffee or a cup of tea every day of your life and this will also probably improve your life and your health. Trying doing that with cocaine or heroin. Actually do not try it because you…

> You can drink two glasses of red wine every day of your life ... this will likely extend your life and improve your health.

This is only seen in tests with small animals such as mice or rats. Please cite a source showing that this result is also seen in humans.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#82

Post by visarga »

foobarian wrote: post #48
vinceguidry wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A once-daily dose of cocaine or heroin is not likely to lead to serious dependence or health effects. So long as the dose and frequency remain constant, one should be able to ride that horse forever. Americans have forgotten just how ubiquitous drugs that are now illegal used to be, and how often they were used. Amphetamines used to be commonly prescribed by doctors, for just about anything. Hitler used to take cryst…

> Hitler used to take crystal meth daily, he was reported to have taken nine shots during his last days in the bunker Not exactly a glowing endorsement of taking the drug.

And he died soon after he took meth. Not exactly indicating responsible use.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#83

Post by derefr »

TylerE wrote: post #79
derefr wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More and more, I don't see addicts; I see people self-medicating for undiagnosed neurochemical imbalances. Alcoholics are frequently people who don't realize they have anxiety disorders, and think they need alcohol to be calm. People who drink cup after cup of coffee/soda because it helps them to "focus" and "be productive" might do well with being tested for ADD. People with undiagnosed clinical depression get hooke…

Why say undiagnosed? Maybe we ha've been and just prefer something less. Caffiene is easier on the body and mind than amphetamines.

People who have been diagnosed with something, and then pursue alternative lines of therapy, usually manage to use those alternative therapies responsibly, because they are actually thinking of them using the mental framing of "treatment for condition" rather than "fun recreational substance I seem to enjoy even more than other people."

A lot of recreational drugs are fine if approached in a medical context. Amphetamines, nicotine, MDMA, whatever—given appropriately-controlled dosing and a desire to achieve a therapeutic effect rather than a "high", one can consume these substances in a long-term fashion without addiction, and remain "healthy" or even "healthier".

It's the undiagnosed who are the problem. Since they don't think they have a problem (except perhaps a problem common to all human experience, or a problem with their environment—anything but an uncommon neuroendocrine ailment) they don't even realize that there's any other point than the "high" to begin with. They pursue these drugs because they seem really, really good: they get the recreational effects and they help with their problems! And then they get addicted, because they associate a recreational dosing schedule (rather than a therapeutic one) with their life getting better.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#84

Post by visarga »

chrischen wrote: post #27

> Some drug use causes horrible harm, as I know very well, but the overwhelming majority of people who use prohibited drugs do it because they get something good out of it — a fun night out dancing, the ability to meet a deadline, the chance of a good night’s sleep, or insights into parts of their brain they couldn’t get to on their own. Just because 90% of drug users aren't being harmed, doesn't mean it's necessaril…

> Just because 90% of drug users aren't being harmed, doesn't mean it's necessarily helping.

Why would people use drugs that are not helping them? They avoid substances that make them feel bad. They use only substances that are helping them cope in some way or another. To say drugs aren't helping them is to dismiss their suffering and appetites for release.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#85

Post by visarga »

grasstomouth wrote: post #38
chrischen wrote: post #27

> Some drug use causes horrible harm, as I know very well, but the overwhelming majority of people who use prohibited drugs do it because they get something good out of it — a fun night out dancing, the ability to meet a deadline, the chance of a good night’s sleep, or insights into parts of their brain they couldn’t get to on their own. Just because 90% of drug users aren't being harmed, doesn't mean it's necessaril…

Even you argue that 90% of drug use isn't "helping," the bigger problem that we have today is that criminalizing drug use makes it that much worse. The American Medical Association declared drug addiction "a primary, chronic disease of brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry" in 1987. Why then are we sending drug users to prison and ruining their chances for future employment? This only exacerbates the…

It's hard to treat drug use as a social or medical problem because vilifying it is so tempting for evert aspiring moralist. It's as if there was a category of people who were addicted to demonizing addiction.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#86

Post by faitswulff »

panzagl wrote: post #58

When did 'animals do it' become a justification for anything? Animals are violent, self-centered, racist, misogynistic assholes.

So are we!

What we learn from animals doesn't make it justified, but it might explain our own quirks. For instance, homosexuality is well-documented in animals, which is a neat counter to the position that sex is only "naturally intended" for procreation. And studying animal behavior may expose evolutionary reasons for said behaviors, which helps us understand and sympathize both with animals and with our fellow human beings. For the latter, it may lead to more effective treatment. For the former, it's just really funny. Because who doesn't want to see a drunk elephant or a stoned water buffalo?

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#88

Post by campers »

hristov wrote: post #40
evincarofautumn wrote: post #5

I’ve always found it fascinating that people don’t perceive socially sanctioned drugs as drugs at all. Saying “drugs and alcohol” to me is like saying “sandwiches and hamburgers”. A person can drink a cup of coffee in the morning, smoke a cigarette on their lunch break, and drink a couple glasses of wine in the evening, and the only thing that keeps them from being called a “drug addict” is that these particular drug…

You can drink two glasses of red wine every day of your life and if you are healthy adult male of average weight, this will likely extend your life and improve your health. For a woman it is down to one glass. You can drink a glass of coffee or a cup of tea every day of your life and this will also probably improve your life and your health. Trying doing that with cocaine or heroin. Actually do not try it because you…

Not necessarily (getting addicted that is), or even likely

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-...

Some interesting studies in that article. Environment and personality has a dominant role.

Rats in boring cage will prefer the drugged water, but put them in a cage with toys and other rats to be social with then their use of drugged water goes down significantly.

And we've seen the same in humans. A significant percent of US Vietnam war soldiers were on heroin, but 90% quickly kicked the habit on returning home to a better place. Likewise for medical patients on temporary strong opiates.

Sure that % of people who do get addicted is significant and need support, but definitely a change in the way of viewing the issue.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#89

Post by _nedR »

evincarofautumn wrote: post #5

I’ve always found it fascinating that people don’t perceive socially sanctioned drugs as drugs at all. Saying “drugs and alcohol” to me is like saying “sandwiches and hamburgers”. A person can drink a cup of coffee in the morning, smoke a cigarette on their lunch break, and drink a couple glasses of wine in the evening, and the only thing that keeps them from being called a “drug addict” is that these particular drug…

You're confusing intoxicants with stimulants. Noone accidentally ran over a kid or beat up his wife because he drank too many cups of coffee or smoked one too many cigarettes. Alcohol on the other hand...

edit: If you are going to say that cocaine is primarily a stimulatant, You can't even compare the harmful effects/addictiveness of cocaine with coffee or cigarettes.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#90

Post by nitrogen »

Terr_ wrote: post #22
atom_enger wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you see it this way, it's hard to stand in line at Starbucks and think "I'm not an addict." Everyone and their mother is addicted to something, it's just a matter of whether or not the authorities approve of your choice of substance. Truth is we're humans and humans seek to alter their consciousness whether it be through meditation, prayer, exercise, spinning in circles or a through a shortcut -- a substance. Un…

> Once you see it this way, it's hard to stand in line at Starbucks and think "I'm not an addict." Except "addict" is a loaded term, which implies... well, unequivocally maladaptive behavior. You seldom hear about people who lie to their loved ones about their hidden coffee stash, or steal from their child's piggybank to sustain their caffeine fix.

You seldom hear about people who lie to their loved ones about their hidden coffee stash

Try Utah some time. Great place, interesting culture, and occasionally, secret coffee stashes.

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