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The curious case of disappearing Polish S

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Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#81

We Polish people have a hard language :(

We Polish people have a hard language

It goes both ways; for example, how many Poles have well and truly mastered all of English's tenses?

Heck, personally I think getting the definite and indefinite articles right consistently is a hard enough struggle.

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#82

We Polish people have a hard language :(

I've been friends with a couple from Poland for over a decade and I still can't say their names the "real" way.

I've been friends with a couple from Poland for over a decade and I still can't say their names the "real" way.

Honestly, Polish pronunciation isn't that tricky, trilled Rs aside.

What're their names? Wikipedia has a great guide:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Polish/Polish_pronunciation

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#83
I first learned about this issue while working on Primrose.

Things get really hairy in the browser when you start talking about JavaScript, the keyboard, and international support.

For example, there is no way to know what keyboard layout a user is using. With Primrose, I guess based on the user's default language, but even that isn't perfect as a lot of not-US English speakers just show up as "en", with no further locale description, so I also provide a select list with all of the available choices.

It's very difficult to know with certainty what character a user is intending to type. KeyCode 51 with no modifier keys is "3" on most keyboards, except French, where it is "#" (they essentially swap the casing of the number row).

The number pad numbers send different keycodes than the number row numbers, but the number pad arrows (if you turn off the numlock) send the same keycodes as the arrow keys.

In languages with deadkey support for diacritics (such as French and German), the deadkey keyCode isn't sent until the second key is typed. Then, they are sent in rapid succession.

There is absolutely no way to know what is going on with IMEs.

And there is no reliable way to interact with the soft keyboard on mobile devices. Some versions of soft keyboards don't send the arrow key keyCodes. There is no standardization of what keys should be available, so you can't guarantee that your user will easily be able to type your shortcuts (I know of only one keyboard on Android that even has CTRL or ALT). And it's nearly impossible to know how much space the soft keyboard is going to take up on the screen (you can figure it out on Android, eventually. It's impossible on iOS.).

So, you have one of two choices, if you're trying to implement any sort of browser-based application that involves heavy use of the keyboard.

Option 1: You can either create a hidden, surrogate text area in which the user actually types, unbeknownst to them, and run a sync process between the content they type and the content you display. This has several problems: you have to wait for keyUp to activate shortcut commands. The sync process can be costly (especially in the context for which Primrose exists: WebVR) and it is difficult to keep the cursor view in sync when dealing with mouse/touch interactions. Oh, speaking of pointer actions, you have to make sure your surrogate text area is positioned exactly under the displayed text field, with the text appearing the same apparent size as the displayed text, because when it gains focus the browser will scroll the view to it.

But it will work, except for certain use cases. It won't work well on mobile, and it won't play nicely with WebVR (which is the entire point of Primrose, anyway), especially for Asian users using an IME.

So Option 1 isn't a good option.

Option 2: completely reimplement the key input stack, i.e. create all the keyboards and soft keyboards and IMEs your users will ever need. Completely ignore what the OS and the browser tell you, take only the raw keyCodes, and reconstruct what is happening. It's a lot of work, a lot to debug, but at least there is a path to actually solve every problem.

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#84
post #15

I do not have sufficient profanity in my verbal arsenal for websites that override basic, fundamental browser behaviour because they think they know better than I do what I actually meant to do. I have noticed Medium being a regular perpetrator of this sort of broken behaviour before. That one of the developers at Medium could run into such a glowing example of one of the many reasons it's nasty to override browser b…

If you ask me web browser's stole CTRL+S! It used to mean "save my work", but in a browser it means "download a copy of the website I am viewing", which seems totally different to me. I can't remember ever wanting that behavior. I agree with you that websites shouldn't override useful browser behavior, but I'm OK with websites restoring CTRL+S to it's rightful meaning of saving my work.

It's a holdover from when people who made web browsers imagined them being used for browsing web pages, not as an application run time.

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#85
post #32

"While France, Germany, and other countries got their early PC with customized keyboards whose layouts mirrored closely the typewriters that came before… [...] …in Poland, we had to find another way of inputting the extra 9 diacritics unique to our language." Did we? I dare to say that your historical account is inaccurate. We stuck to our traditional layout for a while. What does it matter if the keyboard wasn't cus…

It allows for much faster typing in compare to these inconvenient right-Alt shortcuts. This is really interesting. As a late-comer to Polish (native British), I've only learned on the right-Alt layout, and the typewriter layout initially gave me The Fear just looking at it. Then I tried to see how quickly I could type Łódź, and yeah, I think you might be right about the pain - the typewriter layout looks like it shou…

I rarely get to come across non-native speakers, good luck : ) Well, note that repositioning "Z" is not just about the pinky. "Z" is present in common Polish digraphs: "cz", "sz", "rz", all of which are easier to type if "Z" is moved to where "Y" normally is.

Type "Szczecin" (my home city) 10 times, and then "Sycyecin" - that's the feeling you'd get on PN-87 :)

Obviously QWERTY isn't a very good keyboard layout to start with. Putting all the letters of the word TYPEWRITER in the top row (to make it easier for the first salesmen to demonstrate the product) wasn't done with everyday user's convenience in mind, English or otherwise.

Hence all these alternatives, such as the most popular Dvorak layout (but also Colemak and plenty others). Which are, however, optimized for English, so a Polish typist wouldn't probably benefit from switching all that much.

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#86
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you have all my votes. Words cannot describe the ire which consumes me when cute webdevs reinvent everything because it works on their industrial-grade computers with perfect internet. I agree. So. Much. But. It pains me to say this: what else would you want to have happen when a user presses Ctrl+S? Are they really wrong, here? Wouldn't a user expect a "save blog" on Ctrl+S? How would I explain to a non-tech us…

Users who do "Ctrl-S" to do fast save are certainly a minority. (1) That minority can have somewhere in the configuration of the site the setting where they can turn the default off, but the default should really be for $deity sake, don't override the default behaviour! 1) I'm old enough that I've programmed the computers with the front panel switches bit by bit, but I've never used "Ctrl-S" as the "fast save" when w…

> Users who do "Ctrl-S" to do fast save are certainly a minority.

My first reaction: How else do you save?! You mean you actually take your hands off the keyboard, and click the floppy icon in a toolbar? Or even.. click on File > Save? Seriously?

I think this assumption as a very strong population bias.

With the people I work with.. it's all about keyboard shortcuts. If you don't know your basic keyboard shortcuts, you're too slow. But then again, I work around people with super customized Vim and EMacs configs and people who live in Photoshop/Illustrator all day. You just can't be productive in those environments without keyboard shortcuts.

For me, users who don't do "Ctrl-S" to save are certainly a minority.

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#87
post #77

1) There is something called "polish typewriter keyboard", now is more like a unicorn than computer part but... I really had one in 1995. 2) in `80 Poland produce some computers "on it`s own", like elwro: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Elwro_800... And they had polish typewriter keyboard... 3) And, there was a polish made clone of IBM PC: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazovia_%28komputer%29#mediavi…

With one exception: "polish typewriter keyboard" is QWERTZ.

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ask me web browser's stole CTRL+S! It used to mean "save my work", but in a browser it means "download a copy of the website I am viewing", which seems totally different to me. I can't remember ever wanting that behavior. I agree with you that websites shouldn't override useful browser behavior, but I'm OK with websites restoring CTRL+S to it's rightful meaning of saving my work.

It means "Save the thing I'm looking at". Ctrl-S says to your browser "I want to save this".

Except, it generally doesn't mean that either. It means "download the page again and save that - nevermind if what I'm looking at has changed since it was retrieved". Which also breaks the mental model of "save my work", even if you're just typing text into a form.

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#89
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only it would not reload the page, it would retweet the currently selected tweet. It was silly. But what's really silly is that the browser actually allows a webpage to override such a basic shortcut like F5.

Twitter also once hooked CTRL+F (find in windows) so it can favor the currrent tweet. Horrible.

That sounds like a deliberate dark pattern. Try to reload? Retweeted. Looking for something? Favorited.

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#90

Yet another example of why websites shouldn't be able to hijack keys that have meaning outside them (in the browser itself, or in the desktop environment). It still blows my mind that browsers permit this and don't provide an easy option to stop such abusive (and dangerous!) behaviour. The workaround is typical of web stuff as well: deal with the symptoms one by one while leaving the underlying problem unquestioned.

It's ahem dangerous? When was the last time ANYONE truly used Ctrl-S to save the webpage as HTML? And why would my inability to do it with a keyboard shortcut be a dangerous problem?

Would you be so dismissive if the overridden key were Ctrl-W?
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