Screw motivation, what you need is discipline • Hacker News Board

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#81

Post by gbuk2013 » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 3:50 PM UTC

reitzensteinm wrote: post #51

This seems to me to be a bit like saying "screw hammers, what you need are screwdrivers." There's a brilliant talk by John Cleese that floats around HN every 6 months or so on how to be creative; if you haven't seen it yet, and you're interested in such a topic, please please please watch it: http://vimeo.com/89936101 If you agree with Cleese's premise, I think it follows that what you need is motivation for the open…

I haven't seen this before and it's awesome - thank you for sharing! :-) It's completely accurate, from my experience.

One thing I could add though (not really related to creativity as such): when he talks about the time at the start of the creative time-space, where your mind gets flooded with the list of things that you should have done and forgotten about - I think this is actually one of the benefits of this exercise. I find it very helpful to write down all these things as a list, because trying to remember them is subconsciously a source of stress. Not to do anything about them then, but just writing them down to get them out of your head.

This is one of the real gems of understanding that I got from reading David Allen's "Getting Things Done". Having these things written down on a list frees your mind from having to try and remember them and also makes it much easier to go through the list and sort it in terms of importance or even get rid of some items altogether! For me it has definitely improved my productivity and also helped reduce the stress of forgetting to do things that are important because I got distracted doing something else.

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#82

Post by rdudekul » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 3:52 PM UTC

reitzensteinm wrote: post #51

This seems to me to be a bit like saying "screw hammers, what you need are screwdrivers." There's a brilliant talk by John Cleese that floats around HN every 6 months or so on how to be creative; if you haven't seen it yet, and you're interested in such a topic, please please please watch it: http://vimeo.com/89936101 If you agree with Cleese's premise, I think it follows that what you need is motivation for the open…

IMHO the post "Screw motivation, what you need is discipline", hits the nail on the head. For many years I too thought that I need to first figure out what I love, then what is valuable to the world etc. etc.

However when I started using Pomodoro technique (http://caps.ucsd.edu/Downloads/tx_forms/koch/pomodoro_handou...) to simply complete daily tasks, I discovered that process is more important than product. When I changed my focus from goal or product orientation to simply discipline/process orientation, I started achieving more.

Somehow there is an emotional weight to thinking about results. To push this burden off, I felt I needed motivation. Ironically I started seeing much better results, when I aligned myself to disciplined execution with a certain detachment to results. Eventually I started hitting most of my objectives, even freeing my time off to do things outside of my work related goals.

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#83

Post by nekopa » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 3:57 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #43

aidenn0 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know of any adults who have successfully cultivated discipline? Based on those I've known since elementary school and still know today, perhaps 80% of the discipline I see in people can be explained by how much discipline they had at 10 years of age.

Ok, so what can one do? I have a genetic discipline disorder, as 23andMe could confirm you, if I could be bothered to do the screening. I possess exactly ZERO self-discipline, and in retrospect, I guess I never had any. I own my career to not having enough discipline to do my math homework at 13 - that's when I picked up programming. The lack of self-discipline is becoming an obstacle in professional lie though. How…

Check out my comment above about:

http://tinyhabits.com/

His basic philosophy is to anchor a very small habit to one you already do. For example, is there one thing you always do first at work? Make coffee, open email? Then choose a tiny habit you would like to form (it should take less than 30 seconds) and do it right after that normal routine habit. (I don't know, maybe write down one task you promised someone you would do and pin it on your monitor). Then after you have done the tiny habit, give yourself a small celebratory high-five. (Cheesy as it sounds, the tiny habit where I didn't do this little celebration didn't stick after the week long program).

Check out and sign up for his 1 week program (its free).

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#84

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 3:57 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #43

aidenn0 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know of any adults who have successfully cultivated discipline? Based on those I've known since elementary school and still know today, perhaps 80% of the discipline I see in people can be explained by how much discipline they had at 10 years of age.

Ok, so what can one do? I have a genetic discipline disorder, as 23andMe could confirm you, if I could be bothered to do the screening. I possess exactly ZERO self-discipline, and in retrospect, I guess I never had any. I own my career to not having enough discipline to do my math homework at 13 - that's when I picked up programming. The lack of self-discipline is becoming an obstacle in professional lie though. How…

[deleted]

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#85

Post by jimhillhouse » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 3:58 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #68

visakanv wrote: post #16

I have been thinking, reading and writing about motivation / discipline / procrastination / akrasia for years now. I'm always looking for really good material on the subject. Unfortunately for some strange reason, most of the posts I've seen that get to the front page of Hacker News are woefully oversimplistic. Even discipline is something that requires some sort of motivation to cultivate. It is something that you h…

I think part of the discipline problem is the solipsism of our times. In an army, your environment provides discipline and (often) fosters motivation for (for example) fitness. A fitness class reduces the need to discipline & self motivation to getting yourself to the class. After that, the environment takes care of itself. Self discipline and self motivation is a problematic subset of discipline and we're not really…

When in college, I saw my friends, who were once in the military, power through learning at time frustratingly difficult subjects. It didn't take long to see that their consistent efforts yielded progress in excess of what the rest of us "self-motivators" were making. I don't know why that came as a surprise. After all, my Dad, who was a staff sergeant, raised three boys by himself-our mother died when we were 3, 2, 6 mos-while running an architecture firm.

Some may say we need a holistic approach in how we get ourselves to do what can be unpleasant but also life and career enhancing tasks; I think that makes things more complicated than they need to be. The times when I've applied the disciplined approach to work have been my most productive. Other people's mileage may vary.

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#86

Post by ebiester » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 4:08 PM UTC

jasonm23 wrote: post #42

ebiester wrote: post #36

Did you ever notice that nobody ever talks about how to cultivate disciplne? If it wee as easy as "just go do it" than everyone would. The latest analogy of discipline is of a muscle. Do more and it gets bigger, right? Not exactly. While true in some aspect, it leads to bad choices on later decisions you make, at least in creative work. Three ways to improve discipline: 1. Develop a mindful meditation practice. It wi…

It's actually easy to "Just do it" I will roundly reject your 3 steps to discipline, as they are wishy-washy and completely irrelevant to actually creating self discipline. Here's a few steps that might help someone who isn't trying to be a massive poseur. 1. Be really really hard on yourself. Tell yourself constantly that you are not good enough, and you MUST do better, in fact it's pathetic how little you have acco…

I'm not saying that Covey doesn't have good points, but they are better fit to the manager schedule, not the maker schedule.

What I am saying is that that "just do it" method of discipline building is rather useless for creative work. I have seen my fair share of people who have failed with this advice.

I failed with that advice for years.

I solved my problem with the three above.

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#87

Post by j45 » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 4:10 PM UTC

Love the focus on discipline. Most of us cringe or struggle with the idea that discipline will somehow constrain or cause us pain, but it's really come down to one thing for me to remember.

Always build my ability to build discipline and all other habits can be improved or developed because I have discipline.

Discipline creates freedom from things by doing what is needed to be done in the short term for a long term.

Wisdom is to know that discipline is the master skill to develop, whether it's the discipline to be creative (and for how long), and the discipline to power through the things that need doing, serves or transfers as skills.

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#88

Post by hdante » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 4:24 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #69

hdante wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author argues that discipline is what gets you started and motivation is what keeps you going.

> The author argues that discipline is what gets you started and motivation is what keeps you going. I don't see that argument anywhere in the article -- it seems mostly to be that motivation and discipline serve the same purpose, but discipline is more reliable and better. But then, I don't see the original article as being worth the electrons used to transmit it, its a rant that neither seems to have any grounding…

I'm afraid that trying to squeeze the text on the analogy made me distort the message. What I meant is in this paragraph:

"The point is to cut the link between feelings and actions, and do it anyway. You get to feel good and buzzed and energetic and eager afterwards."

So, discipline will kick things off and later you'll have the feelings that should have been generated by motivation.

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#89

Post by kylec » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 4:31 PM UTC

Htsthbjig wrote: post #60

jacquesm wrote: post #2

This is probably the best post to hit HN all month. It's a thing that I notice over and over again, the ability to execute and persevere is strongly correlated with individuals that show (self)discipline. The ability to get out of bed (even when you don't want to) to work real hard (even when faced with a hundred or more distractions, or on something that you may not even like) and the ability to keep a long term goa…

"The ability to get out of bed (even when you don't want to) to work real hard." If you have problems getting out of bed, I recommend that you work on it first. If you have problems getting out of bed it is because you don't sleep enough, or if you are fat or old you can interrupt your sleep at night(sleep apnea). Both motivation and discipline is needed for success, but the basics are your food, exercise and rest. I…

    If you have problems getting out of bed it is because you don't sleep enough,
    or if you are fat or old you can interrupt your sleep at night(sleep apnea)

Losing weight requires discipline. I know because I have none and I'm fat.

Re: Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

#90

Post by super-serial » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 4:33 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #22

jacquesm wrote: post #2

This is probably the best post to hit HN all month. It's a thing that I notice over and over again, the ability to execute and persevere is strongly correlated with individuals that show (self)discipline. The ability to get out of bed (even when you don't want to) to work real hard (even when faced with a hundred or more distractions, or on something that you may not even like) and the ability to keep a long term goa…

Do you know of any adults who have successfully cultivated discipline? Based on those I've known since elementary school and still know today, perhaps 80% of the discipline I see in people can be explained by how much discipline they had at 10 years of age.

I'm a different person due to the supplements and food I eat. I'm obsessed about always improving my nutrition and supplement stack. It's paying off in terms of how much work I'm capable of doing. "Give your body the right food and it will do the right thing" is something I believe in.

That combined with the routine of going to a 9-5, then afterwards going to a coworking space for my startup, I'm really getting a lot of work done. Before I would stay at home and do the bare minimum of contract work, waste time on the internet, and dream about doing a startup. I'd say I'm about 3 times as productive as I was when I worked from home.