Live data from Hacker News

I don’t know what to do, you guys

fredrikdeboer.com

81–90 of 216 posts

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#81
post #22
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is easy to beat: just go to the source. If there's a howling white man going on about injustice and how he's going to tell you about the struggles of women of color, First Nations and Imperialism.. ignore that person. Go talk to a (well.. several, actually) woman of color, member of a First Nation or a nation ravaged by European and/or American imperialism. "But what can I do as a white man/white women/generally…

So, I hung out on a forum called 'stuff white people do' for a while. I wanted to find out more about racism, and the forum host was white, along with the denizens being a mixed group (I didn't want to stick my nose into a place where it wasn't wanted). Anyway, this exact thing you suggest was something that they explicitly had articles against. "PoC are tired of being asked about their experiences. Go read a book fi…

Thanks for the story. It's something to consider when being conscientious about these things.

I think a possible difference is that asking someone to share their experience directly invokes some kind of entitlement on the part of the asker.

But, I don't think that there is anything wrong with amplifying the messages of those underrepresented [1]. Many people with true experience are talking, but have trouble getting that message heard.

[1] With their permission. Don't shuttle around someone's personal story without permission. It can be damaging in ways that you're not aware.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#82

I find it strange that there's a concern with political correctness on HN when the majority of "political" stories gets flagged to death. I guess this political story happens to fit the narrative. Talk about political correctness.

To the person who doesn't share the progressive political viewpoint, the flood of stories about diversity in tech, always written from a pro diversity viewpoint, is itself a form of political activism to be resisted.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#83
post #28
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are you sharing your views with that you are experiencing so much judgement, etc? Are these comments on your blog, or real life friends, or both? >politics are still left of centre The whole left-right thing is really a false dichotomy. It sounds to me like you associated/associate with extremists of political correctness. I hold some very progressive ideologies, but I have never faced ridicule if I don't "tow th…

> Who are you sharing your views with that you are experiencing so much judgement, etc? You'd be surprised. I left the Bay for a handful of years, and when I came back half of my friends had become political radicals. There is no lack of people who will react badly if you don't share their views in detail.

This goes in all directions.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#84

What is intersectional politics?

"Intersectionality" is the observation that your status/lack-of-status in society is the result of not just single systems (black/white, rich/poor, native/immigrant, male/female, hetero/homo, cis/trans) but a combination of all of these.

So a specific person in a specific place is privileged/oppressed as the sum of the advantages/disadvantages provided by each of the identifiable systems. As an example, being a man is usually a net positive in terms of societal privileges, but being black at the same time? Being female is a disadvantage, but if you're also rich, you're still coming out ahead.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#85
post #83
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who are you sharing your views with that you are experiencing so much judgement, etc? You'd be surprised. I left the Bay for a handful of years, and when I came back half of my friends had become political radicals. There is no lack of people who will react badly if you don't share their views in detail.

This goes in all directions.

Indeed it does.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#86
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an odd view. Right wing politics in the US claims to lean toward reducing/dismantling SS and the welfare state, radically changing immigration and education policy. (In reality they are prevented from doing this, of course.) In contrast, left wing politicians just want to throw more money at the same things.

"radically changing immigration and education policy." => "making it so that the current demographic makeup doesn't change that much". Right-wing reforms of this kind aren't about the legislative change, but about keeping society itself relatively unchanged. Rate of reform isn't calculated in number of laws passed, but in the societal effects of those laws.

When right wing types poison-pilled Bush's amnesty bill, they didn't try to protect the current democratic makeup. They merely tried to shift the balance of new immigrants to be more conservative (more educated, more Eastern Europe, less Mexico). And again, reducing dependency on the state and radically changing the education system is hardly a matter of preserving things the way they are.

Put it this way - given a choice, which would you prefer? Allow no new laws to be passed for 8 years, or give Republicans an 8 year supermajority and a mandate to make any changes they liked? If you are right that they merely want to keep things static, you should be indifferent.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're saying yours is the nuanced position and anyone disagreeing with you does so out of inability to grasp the nuance. Is that how you really feel?

Down voters, try to understand that I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the position in Eich, so calm your itchy down-voting fingers. I'm asking for a clarification.

I believe javajosh is implying that a number of people failed to grasp the position in question, rather than anything about agreement.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#88
post #12

I spent about ten years being an "ally" to feminism, to the LGBT community, to minorities, etc. And then my views drifted ever so slightly from the tried and true party lines. One day I said I thought it was wrong that Brandon Eich was forced out of Mozilla, I said I thought it was wrong the way he was treated. Immediately the decade spent arguing for gay rights and marriage equality disappeared and I became a bigot,…

One of the most annoying places to be right now is to have sympathies with both sides of these issues and to try to discuss things rationally and evenly.

Simple example:

I've got two good friends, one of them on one side of the GamerGate nonsense, and one on the other. I have to be very careful chatting with them, because while they each separately are very articulate and reasoned in their arguments, I cannot even pretend to identify with any of the other side without risking very strongly being labeled and shut out of further discussion.

You'd think you could get these people to agree to sit down and calmly hear each other out, maybe critique each other's positions, and perhaps agree to disagree--but no.

No, instead one side will immediately feel like they are being judged and condescended to and set up for mocking, and the other will feel that they are probably tempting a campaign of harassment and stalking and abuse. Neither can talk openly and freely because they assume that the other person, once flagged as the opposition, will be doing everything disingenuously. One cannot have reasoned discussions in such an environment.

And if you do agree with the people who are either side of GamerGate? You're either siding with people who use threats and really sloppy language ("SJW" as a catchall for any goddamn thing that even is remotely related, good or bad), or siding with people who bully and pander and conduct successful mass-media campaigns belittling their opponents. Like, nobody deserves to win this.

~

The thing that's most annoying to me, though, is that one side you can kind of reason with, because you slowly wittle away the crazy into an admission that "Well, yeah, we should treat them with some class, I guess. Death threats aren't actually okay."

The other side, though, has made central to its position a sort of victimhood, and that is a position very hard to navigate somebody out of. And so, even if you try and work on things, they'll acknowledge a small portion of why the other side has its issues, and then immediately revert to "But, think of the fear and the suffering and blah blah blah".

And it's annoying, because if you try to stand on that side and argue back with the jerks making deaththreats and doxxing and doing nasty shit, you look over your shoulder to see your allies and they're automartyring and being downright mean and just clearly not acting in any sort of productive way.

And if you're on the other side and trying to support the nerds who are getting picked on and made fun of and made out to be manchildren and whatnot? Your allies are busy calling in bomb threats and making the most puerile gestures and getting so damned emotional in their trolling they losing sight of the big picture--and playing right into the hands of their opponents.

It's just so goddamn frustrating.

The exact same thing plays out in politics: one side will make fun of and harass the other side, and that side will continually play the abused and purge anybody who doesn't fall in with them.

And between the two of them, there's simply no place for anybody who doesn't want to look like a buffoon or an opportunistic victim.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an odd view. Right wing politics in the US claims to lean toward reducing/dismantling SS and the welfare state, radically changing immigration and education policy. (In reality they are prevented from doing this, of course.) In contrast, left wing politicians just want to throw more money at the same things.

I agree that it's incorrect to say that right wing politics are specifically about maintaining the status quo, but that does tend to be the effect of their policies, regardless of how much they change the law "lines of code" style, as pointed out by a sibling post. But what right wing politics are about is maintaining the social order. Ensuring that wealth stays with the wealthy, power remains with the powerful, and…

On the contrary, right wing politics seem to be about replacing the current social order. Currently academics, teachers and other govt bureaucrats occupy a strong position in the social order. So do government dependents. This is the status quo.

Right wing politics wants to reduce the position of those groups and elevate the position of workers, business leaders and those who embody traditional christian values. That's a real change in the status quo.

Post reply on HN