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U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

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Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be on to something there. I wonder, however, how people are going to reconcile what the government is doing now with all of those previous works of fiction? It's going to have to add up to something -- a narrative must be formed. Were those just the halcyon days of yore? And now we've somehow "grown up" to face the realities of a scary world? Even more troubling, people are people, and when this is seriously…

Um, I really don't think it's at East German Stasi-levels. Known dissidents were gaslighted, had objects in their homes moved around, and had informants reporting on them in their apartment buildings/family/workplace. It's bad, it's dystopian, but it doesn't seem to be THAT bad yet.

The operative word is 'yet'. You're right. Things aren't that bad now, compared to the Stasi.

But the problem lies in the tools and information available. All it takes is for one of the parties in power to decide they want to use it for their own unscrupulous purposes. And suddenly, they have more information than the Stasi could have dreamed of.

There's no guarantee there will ever be anyone in power who wants to abuse this. But it's a dangerous situation we've put ourselves in.

If we're starting a betting pool, my bet would be on the system limping along as it is for the forseeable future. Average citizens won't even really notice the growing surveillance. Criminals will, but no one will care about them. Certain protest groups, like whatever form the future Occupy takes, will see the system used to their detriment, but ordinary people will still not care. Always safe to bet on apathy, and relatively safe to bet on the politicians / powers-that-be realizing they can already have most of what they want without creating a repressive hellhole--which would cause more economic and social problems than it would be worth.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#82
This can cut both ways.

Back in the early 2000's, plane spotters identified CIA planes used for extraordinary rendition by recoding registration numbers and locations.

Maybe David Brin was right after all[2]. Automatic license plate scanning is trivial now. It would be pretty easy for anyone to build a node of a system like this.

[1] http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/dec/10/usa.terrorism1

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transparent_Society

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#83

It's happening in Australia too. I spoke to a CEO of a company here a few years ago which provides software and services to the government and RTA/RMS. There are cameras setup under overpasses which automatically take photos of each individual car and it's passengers. In this particular incident their company was tasked with processing all of those photos to identify/track a guy who had murdered his wife and was on t…

A few years ago NSW Police had several cars fitted with Automatic number plate recognition and after a year of use they already had read more license plates than people living in that state.

I don't necessarily mind police using this for their benefit, but not long ago we didn't have all this technology and information so easily available. So there must be oversights and appropriate usage, or we are just giving them unfettered access. Warrants should have to be obtained to get this sort of information, I think.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#84
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to reverse this. Trying to cage this with paperwork will just lead to more of the same creative interpretations à la NSA. So the rulers don't feel the rules apply to them, big surprise. With that in mind, the futility of fighting the tide, what is the next step? As the ideal solution of reversal is unavailable, we need to go with harm reduction - but what is the harm that we would reduce? Most would s…

There was an lapd officer(s) that were murdered within the last few days and the murderer used the waze app that shows the reported locations of speed traps and the government is already asking google to prohibit that information in some form. Knee jerk reactions to current events are never going to end well for openness of data.

Not quite true. There were recent stories that the LAPD commissioner was calling for Waze to remove police tracking from their app. [1] There was a callout of two NYPD officers being killed in December by a shooter that used Waze before the attacks, but did not use it to track their locations leading up to and during shootings.

[1] - http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_POLICE_TRACKING_AP...

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#87
post #47

Same deal in the UK with the national ANPR system (Automatic Number Plate Recognition). Ostensibly to reduce the amount of uninsured/untaxed drivers on the roads. Don't want to sit around in databases? Well, here's a nice list of just a few of the things you can't have: Bank account; Car/motorcycle; Mobile telephone; Internet-connected computer; Credit/debit card; Visible face (oh, we might be safe there, for a few y…

There is no way to reverse this. Trying to cage this with paperwork will just lead to more of the same creative interpretations à la NSA. So the rulers don't feel the rules apply to them, big surprise. With that in mind, the futility of fighting the tide, what is the next step? As the ideal solution of reversal is unavailable, we need to go with harm reduction - but what is the harm that we would reduce? Most would s…

Who remembers when Cheney removed his house from Google Earth? All the while the NSA et al were building insane domestic surveillance systems.

That's pretty much when I understood what "oligarchy" meant and how very much there we were.

Snowden didn't help my mental picture of the country.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#88
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to reverse this. Trying to cage this with paperwork will just lead to more of the same creative interpretations à la NSA. So the rulers don't feel the rules apply to them, big surprise. With that in mind, the futility of fighting the tide, what is the next step? As the ideal solution of reversal is unavailable, we need to go with harm reduction - but what is the harm that we would reduce? Most would s…

America has a gum problem, we can all agree. That said, I feel like the right to bare arms was included specifically for overthrowing oppressive governments (and in case the British came back?). At what point does a government become sufficiently oppressive as to be overthrown by the people? Without defining that, I feel like government can just keep employing the "but terrorists" excuse and the overton window to kee…

Great change rarely comes with-out great violence. It is sad, but appears to be true. Considering Americans and other FVEY countries are for all purposes living very well compared to their cousins makes me doubt this will ever happen.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#89
post #75
post #48

I first encountered these checkpoints in New Mexico and Texas this summer. They're really kind of interesting. It looks like a truck weigh station, except the interstate lanes are closed and everyone is forced to exit. They stop everyone at the checkpoint. They have some kind of terminal under a hood, but the officer (C&BP) looked at the terminal, asked me what country I'm from (USA) and sent me on my way (I'm white,…

What you encountered was probably a C&BP interior checkpoint[0]. Whenever DHS apologists use the "air travel is a privilege, not a right" line, this is what I point them to. Between random C&BP highway checkpoints and TSA patrols on Amtrak, harassment-free travel of any form seems to be a privilege nowadays. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Border_Patrol_int...

Basically anything you couldn't do in 1700s is a priveledge. Driving -- privelage, flying -- priveledge, getting on Amtrak -- they have TSA there too now.

"Arms" are hunting shotguns, pistols. Can't own fully automatic ones, or rocket launchers or fighter planes.

Drones will be illegal soon as well probably.

Basically you can get on your horse and start traveling through the country roads and woods, besides that you need to have "papers".

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#90

Same deal in the UK with the national ANPR system (Automatic Number Plate Recognition). Ostensibly to reduce the amount of uninsured/untaxed drivers on the roads. Don't want to sit around in databases? Well, here's a nice list of just a few of the things you can't have: Bank account; Car/motorcycle; Mobile telephone; Internet-connected computer; Credit/debit card; Visible face (oh, we might be safe there, for a few y…

A direct attack on this surveillance technology might be a losing battle. But what about passing laws to mitigate its effect, and possibly in the long run help fight it? Two examples:

1. A law requiring the government to delete this data after a certain amount of time.

2. Legal penalties for abusing this data. Perhaps standards for how the data must be protected.

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