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IBM says 'several thousand' layoffs on the way

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Re: IBM says 'several thousand' layoffs on the way

#81

Post by swatow »

mpyne wrote: post #79
swatow wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Externalities don't invalidate the entire theory, they just mean that adjustments have to be made in the cases where there are externalities. Hence my emphasis on the fact that a person losing their job is not an externality. I think you read my sentence as "(following the principal of maximizing profits is what is most socially beneficial) in the absence of externalities" where what I meant was "following the princi…

> Externalities don't invalidate the entire theory, they just mean that adjustments have to be made in the cases where there are externalities. Are your adjustments the epicycles upon epicycles hammered onto ancient astronomy's theory of mechanics to make the orbits of the planets appear to work? Or are they like the relatively slight adjustments to Newton brought about by Einstein? I personally feel that any discuss…

I think the best analogy is that general equilibrium theory is a zeroth order approximation to reality, and optimal (Pigovian) tax theory is the first order approximation. You might think a priori that no simple model can tell us much about sociological issues. All I can say is that I was very skeptical before I studied economics, but the theory is actually very compelling. I would recommend looking more into it (e.g. textbooks on micro or macro).

There is this strange disconnect where educated people who don't know much economics believe that economists have become tools of the ruling class, and therefore don't need much consideration. And economists are so stuck in their bubble that they don't believe that any educated person would completely reject economics (e.g. I specifically asked them if they thought that reasonable people could disagree with my original post, and they said no).

Re: IBM says 'several thousand' layoffs on the way

#82

Post by jacquesm »

mbesto wrote: post #69
jacquesm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IBM has re-invented itself more times than you remember. They did it when mini computers came along, when the PC hit (an own goal if there ever was one), they did it when the Internet came of age (and when everybody else was still playing catch-up or even ignoring it) and I'm pretty sure they'll be able to survive the transition to the next phase of things (the cloud or whatever is fashionable). IBM is about as stabl…

Apple has failed itself more times than you remember. They did it with the Lisa, they did it when they tried to launch a PDA (Newton), and I'm pretty sure they'll crash and burn when they try to release an MP3 player or a smartphone. Apple is as volatile as they come. When it was business computing, they made the Apple III, and when it was USB, they made a mouse. How is Apple doing these days?

Good example, thanks! Apple in fact did nearly crash and burn and all that kept them alive at some point was a hand-out from Microsoft.

And from a utility point of view: if all the apple hardware in the world would disappear tomorrow we'd get on just fine, but if all the IBM hardware (and software) would disappear tomorrow the world would grind to a very swift halt and it would be quite a while before we could say we're past the worst.

Re: IBM says 'several thousand' layoffs on the way

#83

Post by jacquesm »

aragot wrote: post #60
CHY872 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have an incredibly short-sighted view of the difficulties associated with software engineering. In particular, your view of how hard it is to write large pieces of software seems to be way, way off.

Please provide your own estimates on how many people are required to make great software. Not talking about Word in particular. I've worked in large companies, now I make a living off my own company, so I must know something about software teams, complexity and feature creep. I didn't provide these estimates in the void.

> I didn't provide these estimates in the void.

Actually, that's exactly what you did.

You made a specific claim about a specific piece of software and you failed to back that up with so much as a shred of evidence.

Re: IBM says 'several thousand' layoffs on the way

#84

Post by jmspring »

I've known more than a few IBMers over the years associated with IBM Almaden and other places. Many of those on contract/part time/etc, kept their heads down. Many full timers, the same thing.

Cringley may or may not be right on the magnitude of the numbers, but the one thing he is right about is IBM is purely governed by pleasing Wall Street above all else.

The IBM that existed when I was growing up and seeded more than a couple of the early founding staff of the UC Santa Cruz Computer Engineering staff (Patrick Mantey and Glen Langdon -- my advisor to name two), is WAY different than the IBM of today.

IBM is a shadow of itself, there are still interesting groups, but even the research arms are being hit hard by genuflecting to wall street.

Re: IBM says 'several thousand' layoffs on the way

#85

Post by parktheredcar »

panzagl wrote: post #32
x0rg wrote: post #18

I think IBM should stop selling the ultra crap software that is selling right now like Websphere commerce and all the crappy enterprisey stuff. They really need something good to change and if layoffs are for the better, it's probably worth trying. If the plan is to keep this stuff going, it's gonna be bad.

Unfortunately I think the crappiness is by design- easy to use doesn't sell support and consulting hours.

awful secret of enterprise software. or maybe it's not so much a secret, I don't know.

Re: IBM says 'several thousand' layoffs on the way

#86

Post by IBM »

jacquesm wrote: post #82
mbesto wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has failed itself more times than you remember. They did it with the Lisa, they did it when they tried to launch a PDA (Newton), and I'm pretty sure they'll crash and burn when they try to release an MP3 player or a smartphone. Apple is as volatile as they come. When it was business computing, they made the Apple III, and when it was USB, they made a mouse. How is Apple doing these days?

Good example, thanks! Apple in fact did nearly crash and burn and all that kept them alive at some point was a hand-out from Microsoft. And from a utility point of view: if all the apple hardware in the world would disappear tomorrow we'd get on just fine, but if all the IBM hardware (and software) would disappear tomorrow the world would grind to a very swift halt and it would be quite a while before we could say we…

Microsoft's investment was too small to save Apple at that time, their revenue and losses were in the billions. The $150 million was symbolic, the more important thing was their commitment to the platform.

This article says that the investment was actually a result of a legal settlement.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/stop-the-lies-the-day-that-micr...

Re: IBM says 'several thousand' layoffs on the way

#87

Post by anonbanker »

31reasons wrote: post #75
stavrianos wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I inferred a "for IBM" on the back of that sentence. Obviously, shitty for those laid off.

IBM is not a live entity it is composed of people.

International Business Machines is a stack of paper registered out of Delaware. The fact that people are employed by this stack of paper does not mean the stack of paper has a soul.

to prove this, note that their stock was up on the rumor of 110k layoffs. Other stacks of paper without souls caught wind of this stack of paper reorganizing, and promptly bought shares.

Re: IBM says 'several thousand' layoffs on the way

#88

Post by anonbanker »

jacquesm wrote: post #34
DannyBee wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ooh, missed that. Well, i'd bet he's wrong then. They'll be gone, just not by end of february.

Why are you so gleeful predicting doom for IBM?

Ever read IBM & The Holocaust [1]?

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

Re: IBM says 'several thousand' layoffs on the way

#89

Post by bodyfour »

anonbanker wrote: post #87
31reasons wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IBM is not a live entity it is composed of people.

International Business Machines is a stack of paper registered out of Delaware. The fact that people are employed by this stack of paper does not mean the stack of paper has a soul. to prove this, note that their stock was up on the rumor of 110k layoffs. Other stacks of paper without souls caught wind of this stack of paper reorganizing, and promptly bought shares.

nitpick: they're actually registered in New York, not Delaware.

Re: IBM says 'several thousand' layoffs on the way

#90

Post by draugadrotten »

aswanson wrote: post #73
alexqgb wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That, most likely, was the point. A few months ago, Marc Adreessen credited the proliferation of this kind of market manipulation with the demise of the IPO. In his view, a company as well established as IBM can roll with punches like these, but (for reasons he describes in some detail) fledgeling companies can't. So they stay private until they're big enough to fend off the hedgies who make money by planting and fan…

That's interesting...Ben Horowitz said he suffered the same types of attacks from hedge funds; they'd spread a false rumor and because he was under some type of regulatory restriction, he couldn't correct the record unless he simultaneously updated all his institutional investors at the same time. He had to let the rumors ride out...and he only had a 90-100 million market cap. Somebody has to reign in these useless z…

> he couldn't correct the record unless he simultaneously updated all his institutional investors at the same time.

Hmm, conference calls, twitter, e-mail, web pages. And so on.

Is it really that difficult to issue an update which satisfies this legal requirement.

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