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Italia Startup Visa

italiastartupvisa.mise.gov.it

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Re: Italia Startup Visa

#81
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't work. I am an American who has lived and worked in Switzerland for 8 year previously. I currently have a working visa for France and the Czech Republic, both Schengen, but (essentially) can't work in Switzerland.

(1) Couldn't you offer services to Swiss companies? (2) Couldn't you get an Italian passport? (As an EU-citizen, you can work in Switzerland without hassle).

(1) Not on-site

(2) I'm in France and yes, in another year I can get a French passport and work there without hassle.

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#82
As an American living in Italy, here's my perspective:

Italy is a wonderful place, but not a very well run country. Food, geography, history... it's fractally beautiful in that the big, amazing things are worth seeing, but you can also go to some small town and find something fascinating. It's just bursting with great places. The people are mostly a plus too, I have good friends here, and know a lot of smart hackers. When I moved here from San Francisco a number of years ago, I still had plenty of people to talk tech with. Here in northern Italy, people work fairly hard (and I'm sure there are people in the south who do as well), and don't command high salaries for their efforts. In some parts of Italy, corruption is a big problem, but it's not something I have seen much of on a day-to-day level. Of course I don't work in a field where I would, either.

The down side: bureaucracy is a nightmare, taxes are high, and a lot of people are leaving, because they can get more money elsewhere. It's no longer as cheap to live here as it once was, either. The long and the short of it is: no, I would not really consider opening a business here a good idea, although I would consider opening an R&D center to benefit from high quality workers at relatively cheap prices.

Italy is ranked quite badly here for a reason: http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings

Italians: it is possible to change, if you work at it. I was able to help accomplish a small change myself, despite not being from here, and not having money or connections: http://www.governo.it/Notizie/Presidenza/dettaglio.asp?d=690... . So, things are not good, but if you're willing to invest some time and effort, they can be improved, a little bit at a time.

Part of the problem, IMO, is the idea that the government should 'guide' things. "Startups are good!" right? So they create a government definition of what an "innovative startup" is, and give those companies some benefits. This means more public employees to look after it, more hoops to jump through, more people trying to make a company that the bureaucrats have incentivized, rather than a company that simply does what it does. Even my own small contribution got watered down in that way: rather than simplifying SRL's (the Italian equivalent of an LLC) for everyone, they created a new category.

That's the wrong approach: what they absolutely need to do is simplify the bureaucracy, and secondly, lower taxes. First and foremost, the number and complexity of them. Paying a lot of taxes is not so bad if it's simple, straightforward, and does not take a lot of time, and you receive something for them. But all the little one-off taxes and the complexity of dealing with others is terrible.

This is all stuff economists and others have been saying for years.

As I mentioned elsewhere: Italy doesn't need to be the best place to do business. It's got lots of good things going for it. It just has to start sucking less.

If you're interested in more of 'my take on things', I write about life in Italy here: http://blog.therealitaly.com/

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#83
post #11

One piece of advice from an Italian, who was born and grew up there: It's a suicide, absolutely do NOT do this. We have the best weather, culture, food, wine, beaches, etc, you name it. But opening a business in that dysfunctional country? RUN and don't look back. Between fiscal pressure, crazy laws and compliances, the effective presumption of guilt, completely broken or unavailable infrastructure in the hand of mon…

I'm another Italian and I second this comment. I already run away and things in the UK are much much better. There might not be the same sun or or food. But at least things are more fair and the rules of the game are pretty clear, not just made up on the stop when it's convenient like it would happen in Italy.

Italy has currently a huge problem of smart, young people leaving the country because of this situation. Before trying to attract foreign they should be able to keep their own people.

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#84
post #11

One piece of advice from an Italian, who was born and grew up there: It's a suicide, absolutely do NOT do this. We have the best weather, culture, food, wine, beaches, etc, you name it. But opening a business in that dysfunctional country? RUN and don't look back. Between fiscal pressure, crazy laws and compliances, the effective presumption of guilt, completely broken or unavailable infrastructure in the hand of mon…

Is the mafia still a problem in mainland Italy? Serious question...

Unfortunately it is...

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#85
I really appreciate the Italia Startup Visa effort, but here's the facts...

THE CONS:

Italy environment is toxic for a startup.

Italy is a MandarinCracy.

It is a country, not ruled by politicians, but by self serving high level officials. They oversee 4 million strong public workforce, and have created the most complex set of rules & regulations and to justify they own existence along with the highest taxation (80%) on the world to pay for them.

THE PROS

Italy Freelance workforce is great for a startup.

They have a huge freelancers Workforce, (designers and Developers) with the same talent found in the Silicon Valley at the fraction of the cost. ($28K to $40K year salary). They are called "popolo delle partite iva" and are de facto a second level citizen. They do not have the same privileges as the rest of the 50+ workforce. Still.. they will work hard and passion for any project with great critical thinking.

My final advice:

Create a business somewhere else (UK or US) and setup a small R&D development team in Italy

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which changes?

For example, in recent years a stupid regulation called "sector studies" have been introduced. Basically, they look at the average you should be earning in a specific field. If you report less than that amount in a tax declaration, you are assumed to be evading taxes. Practically you are assumed guilty until proven innocent, which is not as easy to do as you think. This is without adding other systemic diseases. Havi…

> "we haven't found anything, but since we have been checking for two days, we have to find something"

as crazy as it may sound, this is true and happens all the time. I've got countless similar stories from friends who went through it.

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#87
post #54

If you want to tap into the pool of talented italian engineers you could also open up a shop at the border to Italy in Switzerland and employ cross-border commuter from northern Italy. You would have to pay them more than if you would open up your shop in Italy, but you would avoid these kafkaeske system called Italy and enjoy all the advanteges of Switzerland.

Then why not just stay fully in Switzerland?

..because you'd have to pay 3x to get swiss to work for you, while italians might jump the border for a lot less than what they'd deserve.

Don't forget you need to pay 4x (or more) for rent of any office space (or housing space) in Switzerland compared to the other side of the border.

This explains why lots of businesses that migrated from italy to switzerland in search of an "el dorado" closed shop after a short timespan, realizing business is hard everywhere.

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#89

I really appreciate the Italia Startup Visa effort, but here's the facts... THE CONS: Italy environment is toxic for a startup. Italy is a MandarinCracy. It is a country, not ruled by politicians, but by self serving high level officials. They oversee 4 million strong public workforce, and have created the most complex set of rules & regulations and to justify they own existence along with the highest taxation (80%)…

I don't understand why people like to bash on their own country. 80%? Not certainly for everyone.

As a freelance I pay 5% until I reach an higher level of income and I'll be able to pay more taxes. On top of this there's 21% for retirement contributions.

Is there any other country where a lower amount of taxes is paid?

Re: Italia Startup Visa

#90

I really appreciate the Italia Startup Visa effort, but here's the facts... THE CONS: Italy environment is toxic for a startup. Italy is a MandarinCracy. It is a country, not ruled by politicians, but by self serving high level officials. They oversee 4 million strong public workforce, and have created the most complex set of rules & regulations and to justify they own existence along with the highest taxation (80%)…

I don't understand why people like to bash on their own country. 80%? Not certainly for everyone. As a freelance I pay 5% until I reach an higher level of income and I'll be able to pay more taxes. On top of this there's 21% for retirement contributions. Is there any other country where a lower amount of taxes is paid?

> Is there any other country where a lower amount of taxes is paid?

There are plenty of them.

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