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“Nothing you can do impresses me”

ginnabaker.wordpress.com

81–90 of 132 posts

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#81
post #4

I have learned a similar lesson over the past few months - I was thrust into a leadership position by part circumstance, and when it came to working with junior developers, it clicked that I needed to be building them up & increase their confidence in the correct approaches to engineering, not be hyper critical. I am indeed hypercritical of my own work, always striving for self-improvement, but I recognize that diffe…

Yes, you want your people to be productive, if they're afraid to come to with questions for fear of criticism, chances are greater they will sit spinning their wheels for longer, accomplishing less.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#82
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This goes both ways. I've tried to be a helpful force in a few coder's lives, but something prevents them from taking the advice to heart, and instead of getting better, they just stop coming to me. I then only run into their code during code reviews, and when I point out the issues, they take it as me saying, "you're no good", and never fix the issues, preferring to slink away into the night. What's a guy supposed t…

>I've tried to be a helpful force in a few coder's lives, but something prevents them from taking the advice to heart, and instead of getting better, they just stop coming to me. Why do you think that is? (Sincere question)

There's a surprisingly large number of coders who believe themselves much better than they are. Giving them useful feedback, no matter how supportive or positive, is extremely difficult.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#83

When I first came to Silicon Valley, I had a couple of senior engineers as my mentors. The most important lesson I learned from them is that they were extremely supportive. I had a couple of ideas for new features, and instead of shooting them down and telling me why it wouldn't work, their responses were always "Hmmm, sounds interesting. Why don't you spend some time on it and let's see how it works out." When I did…

I'm of two minds about this. I like supporting new ideas, but I've found that the quickest way to build the confidence of a new engineer is for them to have something succeed. So I do think there's a balance that has to be struck between supporting whatever they want to try and guiding them towards things that will give them their first taste of success.

This is true in every sector of work. People are motivated by success. As a marketer who manages a team of 8 (including myself), I've been trying to learn to a) give context into why I might be poo-pooing something and b) a few ideas for other directions we could go.

Part of the job of being a mentor and manager is to guide them in a helpful way to greatness. Allowing them to work on whatever they want to work on is no way to build someone's confidence and skills, let alone a business.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#84

1. A lot of developers are missing something in the brain that allows them to feel empathy. 2. Coding is all mental (don't tell that to your hands). So, when you question a developer's code, it's kinda personal. Some take this hard. Too hard. So they build up a defensive barrier. 3. Developers are treated as a commodity by people with business degrees. This feeds the notion that they need to be perceived as the best…

It should be remembered that feeling empathy is not the same as being controlled by empathy. Just because I feel empathy for a newbie's struggles does not mean I am going to push sub-standard code live so they can get that feeling of success.

As the article notes, a ruthlessly critical attitude towards your own work is very important. I'd argue that it's one of the most important traits that helps an engineer develop. If we don't teach that, we will collectively become a community of warm, emotionally supportive, technically worthless people.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#85
This blog reminds me of something I heard in an interview with Dr. Roy Baumeister. He pointed out that when he works with grad students he has to actively criticize and knock down most of the ideas that his male students have because they are full of testosterone and hubris and he has to actively draw out his female students to build their confidence. He told some of his grad students this years ago and they thought he was being sexist, but years later when they (both male and female) got their own grad students they noticed the same thing.

Baumeister is a psychologist who has done research in evolutionary psychology, culture, and gender. His point is that, as taboo as the subject is today, there are differences (statistically) between men and women: how they learn and how they interact socially, and what they like. Right now, we are doing a lot of work to make STEM a better environment for women, but we probably also need to understand that the style of interaction that the poster is criticizing is not bad per se, it’s just a male style, and it does work - it’s what young men use to push themselves further. Women, on average, seem to need/want a different style. It’s going to be hard to figure out how to accommodate both needs without systematically favoring one.

We may not be at the right stage culturally to have a serious conversation about this. I think this is one of Paul Graham’s “Things You Can’t Say” http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#86
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like being supportive is something everyone agrees is a great thing, but few people actually do. Being supportive is just so much work, after all. Much easier to think of ten ways to tear something down. For evidence of how supportive tech communities are, take a look at what happens when someone tries to show off their early projects: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8747053 Comments include "They're pr…

Comments include "They're probably lying," "This is like a parent posting their kindergartener's first crayon house-and-trees-and-sun drawings out into blogs," etc. And most of those comments were heavily endorsed by this community Hmm; I remember that thread as much more positive. Let's look back over top level comments and look at ratios? [1] supportive: I did this kind of thing too! [2] dismissive: this sound susp…

The dismissive criticism was not only present, but in a large proportion of messages; and those criticisms were supported by upvotes. These facts make a very clear statement about HN. I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with your ratios, do you think that the only issue is whether the ratio is better or worse than 1:1?

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#87

1. A lot of developers are missing something in the brain that allows them to feel empathy. 2. Coding is all mental (don't tell that to your hands). So, when you question a developer's code, it's kinda personal. Some take this hard. Too hard. So they build up a defensive barrier. 3. Developers are treated as a commodity by people with business degrees. This feeds the notion that they need to be perceived as the best…

This is a depressingly perceptive comment. Is there anyway to counter or discourage these tendencies in other coders, do you think?

Normally, that would be management's job, or that of senior devs. But the former seem to encourage, or at least tolerate hypercritical responses, and the latter often actively engage in them.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#88

My main hiring qualification has been "Will this person continue to write code that will make me get up in the middle of the night?" or "Will this person contribute to me only working 40 hours and having no emergencies?". I try not to hire the former and hire the later. The culture thing in the second paragraph is bull. A bunch of clones is no fun at all and doesn't give the proper vision. That being said, the "Nothi…

>A bunch of clones is no fun at all and doesn't give the proper vision. Can you explain what this sentence means? Frankly, your English is crap and your vocabulary confused (particularly your articles), so I have a hard time understanding you. I'm telling you straight up in the hope that you'll learn and benefit from my criticism, since I am a very experienced native-English speaker. I hate wasting my time reading in…

>A bunch of clones is no fun at all and doesn't give the proper vision.

I'm also a native English speaker, and had no problem parsing the sentence.

The implication is that hiring a bunch of people very similar to each other in opinions and skills results in an echo chamber mentality, and makes it harder for anyone on the team to identify with differing opinions that could improve the product but are contrary to the team's default position.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#89
post #82
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've tried to be a helpful force in a few coder's lives, but something prevents them from taking the advice to heart, and instead of getting better, they just stop coming to me. Why do you think that is? (Sincere question)

There's a surprisingly large number of coders who believe themselves much better than they are. Giving them useful feedback, no matter how supportive or positive, is extremely difficult.

How did you determine that you are not one of the coders who believe themselves better than they are? Because if you are misled about your own ability, you might also be misled about which feedback is useful.

Is it possible that there is a surprisingly large number of coders who believe their feedback more useful than it is?

If coder feedback tends to be useful, then isn't it likely that meta-feedback on the usefulness of feedback is useful?

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#90
post #89
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a surprisingly large number of coders who believe themselves much better than they are. Giving them useful feedback, no matter how supportive or positive, is extremely difficult.

How did you determine that you are not one of the coders who believe themselves better than they are? Because if you are misled about your own ability, you might also be misled about which feedback is useful. Is it possible that there is a surprisingly large number of coders who believe their feedback more useful than it is? If coder feedback tends to be useful, then isn't it likely that meta-feedback on the usefulne…

Then suddenly it becomes impossible to offer any feedback. Or discuss offering feedback. Or discuss even the possibility of feedback.

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