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Can't you just turn up the volume?

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Re: Can't you just turn up the volume?

#81

Post by pistle »

pistle wrote: post #73
anigbrowl wrote: post #29

What’s the solution? Multi-Band Compression (MBC), a technique that’s been used by the $6 billion hearing aid industry to solve this specific problem. An MBC uses intelligent design instead of a one-size-fits-all method. With the right data about your hearing pattern, it can mash the full sound into your range so that you get all the information you need. Audio engineer here. That is patently untrue. MBC is a super-u…

I was about to question everything until I read this. Thanks AE. My understanding of MBC is more like a crossover (or mix of low, bandpass, and highpass filters) network followed by compression per band within each section of the frequency range. Now, I want to go test out what it would be like to 'compress' frequencies. Something like a notch filter that shifts nearby frequencies around the target frequency away int…

Well, that's probably why. Somewhat obvious. If you put something through with content in and around the range, you get a notch filter with a resonant hump... not all that interesting.

Re: Can't you just turn up the volume?

#82

Post by JshWright »

Stratoscope wrote: post #23
korethr wrote: post #15

This is nifty. My father has hearing loss and it's bad enough that not only does he use hearing aids, he is constantly turning them up until they feedback and start ringing. He doesn't hear the ringing, but I do, and I have some hearing damage of my own. And he wonders why his hearing aids go through batteries so fast. Their description of how hearing loss works gives me some ideas on how I can help my father manage…

You're not being pedantic at all. It's a fairly egregious error for an article about hearing . It would be like an article about a camera talking about its fast f/1.4 shutter speed.

While the phrase "fast f/1.4 shutter speed" doesn't make perfect sense, it's not uncommon to call a f/1.4 lens a "fast" lens.

Re: Can't you just turn up the volume?

#83

Post by ddingus »

larrybolt wrote: post #2

This was an interesting read, but what to me personally is more interesting is how to prevent hearing loss over the years. I might be wrong on this, but I recall a hearing specialist advising me not to use earbuds at all, or at least limit the use to max 1 hour at a time. A dynamic headphones, such as the good old Superlux HD 681 would be "better" in the long term. (Not trying to advertise for that headphone, it's ju…

In addition to poor isolation noted here, many cheap-o earbuds have a horrible response curve.

They deliver way too much sound in narrow frequency ranges, usually the mid-range, say 1-4Khz, while not enough in the bass, and it's a mixed bag higher up through 10Khz+

People will turn it up, until they are hearing everything, and they do very significant damage to those "hot spot" frequency ranges, despite the overall perception of volume seeming reasonable to them.

Add overly compressed music, and or crappy audio output, and the need to drive it loud happens to nearly everybody.

There will be a whole generation of people, some who we are already seeing struggle with this, requiring adaptive sound options more early in life than is typical.

Re: Can't you just turn up the volume?

#84

Post by randlet »

rtpg wrote: post #64
larrybolt wrote: post #2

This was an interesting read, but what to me personally is more interesting is how to prevent hearing loss over the years. I might be wrong on this, but I recall a hearing specialist advising me not to use earbuds at all, or at least limit the use to max 1 hour at a time. A dynamic headphones, such as the good old Superlux HD 681 would be "better" in the long term. (Not trying to advertise for that headphone, it's ju…

I remember with a pair of earbuds getting a little informational thing on the correct volume. Their rule of thumb is if you are incapable of hearing and understanding what people are telling you without taking out your earbuds, they're too loud. I tried this out, and found that I'm actually fine with the volume bar being maybe 30% of what I used to. Basically, put your earbuds in, play some music, and try to talk to…

"incapable of hearing and understanding what people are telling you without taking out your earbuds"

High quality isolating earbuds should make it pretty difficult to tell what other people are saying even with no music playing! Moving to a mid-range pair of Etymotic noise isolating earbuds was an absolute revelation for me and allowed me to use significantly lower volumes when listening to music. I can't recommend high quality isolating headphones/earbuds enough.

Re: Can't you just turn up the volume?

#85

Post by randlet »

gwern wrote: post #74

For people with hearing loss & run Linux: if you have your audiogram and an idea how your hearing loss varies by frequency, you can try to do selective boosts by frequency through a Pulseaudio filter. I discuss it a bit in https://plus.google.com/103530621949492999968/posts/32qSkcQP...

Nice! Thanks a lot for the link and writing that up!

Re: Can't you just turn up the volume?

#86

Post by ridgeguy »

dlandis wrote: post #69

> If you know people who have hearing loss, you’ve noticed that they can’t tolerate loud noises that you’re fine with, but they also can’t hear some of things that you can hear perfectly well. So what is the explanation of why they can't tolerate certain loud noises? I feel like the article was going to address that aspect of hearing loss as well but never did.

It may be that intolerance of loud noises isn't that the noise is painfully loud or otherwise physically irritating, but that it interferes with their ability to understand simultaneous auditory input.

I've noticed as I age that noise which I would formerly have disregarded without thought has become an irritant - that is, I can't/won't tolerate it - not because it's physically uncomfortable, but because my wetware apparently can no longer do the signal processing that earlier made such noise irrelevant to auditory comprehension.

Re: Can't you just turn up the volume?

#87

Post by jkot »

gwern wrote: post #74

For people with hearing loss & run Linux: if you have your audiogram and an idea how your hearing loss varies by frequency, you can try to do selective boosts by frequency through a Pulseaudio filter. I discuss it a bit in https://plus.google.com/103530621949492999968/posts/32qSkcQP...

Thank you! This is pretty usefull for testing on grandma ☺

Re: Can't you just turn up the volume?

#88

Post by ddingus »

dlandis wrote: post #76
cheng1 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hearing is an range. So they have reduced range on both side.

Hmm, I'm not sure you understand it any better than I do. The article says: > Well, if you get hearing damage at a specific frequency, you’ll start to lose sensitivity to the quiet sounds at this frequency. However, your sensitivity to loud sounds remains the same. If their sensitivity to loud sounds remained the same on the one hand, why would they be unable to tolerate certain sounds on the other hand. Seems contra…

Over time, the ear loses it's ability to carry very loud sounds through all the stages needed for sensation.

This manifests in two basic ways:

1. Fatigue.

That pop music, "wall of loud sound" album was tolerable for a few hours at age 20, gets tiresome at 40, and could be almost painful at age 60. Hearing is a mechanical process, and worn out mechanical parts tend to rattle, lose response, etc... and this is fatigue.

People will respond with something like, "I'm tired of hearing", and to them, the experience of hearing is no longer transparent at higher volumes and longer times.

2. Less dynamic range possible / pain

Think of it like gamma for displays. There is a curve of sensation to input sound in db. People tend to vary a lot, but this curve gets bent away from the normal to a condition that is a lot like "crushed black" and white, where the upper limit of sound volume perception gets distorted.

An unimpaired person can tell the difference between 60, 80, 100db. People who have aged and have losses, may not be able to tell much difference between those volume levels, resulting in "all loud sounds are just loud" not different amounts of loud.

Also think of banding when color depth is reduced. Rather than a nice, smooth response, the listener gets more steps, or various steps may all present in ways that are similar when they should be easily distinguished.

A related thing is discrimination, and it happens with pitch in the same way that it can happen with volume. Loss of pitch discrimination means being unable to distinguish between close frequencies, hearing them as one, or perhaps just as a muddled combination, not as two distinct tones.

This is subtle, and it can happen with most other responses being normal. But the person just can't quite pick out the sounds, despite hearing them individually just fine. It's the combinations they struggle with.

Re: Can't you just turn up the volume?

#89

Post by dghughes »

marquis wrote: post #65

While I appreciate the article, having hearing loss is not like losing context of an image such as not being able to see the bear on the tricycle. It's more like the image is fuzzy and depending on the factor of loss, it might be a bear or it might just be some fuzz: http://i.imgur.com/vKn7oTf.png Audio compression, especially when using psychoacoustic principles, helps by lowering the noise of the unwanted sounds e.…

I'd agree the fuzzy analogy is better since a hearing impaired person may think they understand but they don't, sometimes totally wrong.

I recall reading that vowels are easier to hear than consonants or maybe it is vice versa? "Hello how are you today" may seem like "Hll hw r tdy" which to the hearing impaired person may seem like "How am I tidy?" or something totally incomprehensible but their brain makes up something close (incorrectly) by filling in the blanks.

The Monty Python sketch "I'd like to buy a hearing aid" feels like what I go through daily when trying to communicate with my mother.

I showed it to my mother thought it was funny, sometimes when she thinks she knows what I said but it's not even close it's like the sketch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7UqhDs8zj4

Re: Can't you just turn up the volume?

#90

Post by analog31 »

randlet wrote: post #79
ramLlama wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bigger issue with separating the microphone and amplifier is cosmetic: hearing aids sadly have a stigma attached to them and people are more likely to wear them if they are invisible. There is a reason why hearing aids are produced in hair colors. Also, I found that the best way to get rid of feedback was to get an ear mold rather than using an "open-fit" mold. This is a clear separation between the speaker and the…

"I don't see the elderly changing but our generation just might." I'm youngish (mid 30's) and recently had my hearing aids replaced and realized I had a strong preference to stick with fairly visible behind-the-ear units rather than something more "discrete". I want them to be visible so that people I'm interacting with will be more sympathetic about repeating themselves and may make an (possibly unconscious) effort…

If I notice that somebody has hearing aids, I make sure that they can see my lips when I'm talking.
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