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NASA Rover Finds Active and Ancient Organic Chemistry on Mars

jpl.nasa.gov

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Re: NASA Rover Finds Active and Ancient Organic Chemistry on Mars

#81

Post by ceejayoz »

WalterBright wrote: post #64
swombat wrote: post #3

For those eager to read ahead, they are very, very careful in this article not to imply in any way that this is definitely from any sort of living sources. > Organic molecules, which contain carbon and usually hydrogen, are chemical building blocks of life, although they can exist without the presence of life. Curiosity's findings from analyzing samples of atmosphere and rock powder do not reveal whether Mars has eve…

Let's face it, like the canals, there is no life on Mars. 40 years of probes have come up empty. It's a sterile rock. We should be thinking in terms of terraforming it by seeding it with terrestrial life.

40 years of probes haven't been testing for it. To my knowledge, the last formal attempt at actual detection of life (not conditions for life, but life) was the 1970s Viking landers. There's not even scientific agreement on the right way to search.

Meanwhile, here on Earth, we thought until recently that deep sea vents were sterile. If we didn't know life's limits here, we certainly can't claim to know them on Mars.

Re: NASA Rover Finds Active and Ancient Organic Chemistry on Mars

#82

Post by minikites »

givan wrote: post #79
minikites wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we only see complex life in a narrower range of much milder conditions. I bet there's lots of space microbes but I agree with the parent to this comment that complex, intelligent life is probably pretty rare.

Milder conditions relative to our environment? this is subjective, where do you see complex life and how do you know that complex life requires "milder" conditions or that is rare if we only have ourselves as an example that happen to live in such an environment? What stops bacteria that live in harsh environments to evolve even if probably slower? harsh meaning hard/impossible for ourselves or for life as we know on…

So where is everyone?

http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/fermi-paradox.html

> That would mean there were 10 quadrillion, or 10 million billion intelligent civilizations in the observable universe.

>Our sun is relatively young in the lifespan of the universe. There are far older stars with far older Earth-like planets, which should in theory mean civilizations far more advanced than our own.

I think intelligent life is pretty special/rare, given the evidence.

Re: NASA Rover Finds Active and Ancient Organic Chemistry on Mars

#83

Post by aruggirello »

madaxe_again wrote: post #30
Thieum22 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be comforting that considering the Great Filter theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter ) finding life on mars might actually be bad news.

The great filter theory is subject to our own filter bubble. As I see it, there are other possibilities - Intelligent life doesn't want to be found - at least by us. Intelligent life tends towards simulation, rather than expansion. Further to the above, we are the only intelligent life in the simulation in which we reside. Intelligent life is far more of an aberration than we realise. Intelligent life is actually ver…

> Personally I think we're in a sim and we're about to lose the game

I agree with your last point; however, I believe this is actually a virtual school rather than a "sim".

Re: NASA Rover Finds Active and Ancient Organic Chemistry on Mars

#84

Post by swombat »

fixedd wrote: post #54
exratione wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The important thing to realize about the Fermi Paradox is that all generalizations about behavior fail automatically as explanatory theories. It only takes one small group within one species to generate a self-replicating probe, at which point all of the galaxy is visited in a few million years. A solution to the Fermi Paradox has to explain why that event has never happened despite the fact that some element of our…

The whole Fermi Paradox thing bugs me too, but in a different way. It assumes we have the capability of detecting the presence of other intelligent life. The largest radio telescope we have (the 305 meter diameter Arecibo) would need to have it's sensitivity increased by around two orders of magnitude JUST to pick up our TV/FM/AM signals from outside the solar system. If we move into the narrowband signals then, depe…

> Taken to the extreme, you could even reason that all life on Earth could be the product of one of these machines.

Hah, hilariously ironic. "Where is alien life in the universe? Are we the only ones?" continually bemoan the descendants of the organic probe sent to Earth to populate it with intelligent life.

Re: NASA Rover Finds Active and Ancient Organic Chemistry on Mars

#85

Post by swombat »

roywiggins wrote: post #35
madaxe_again wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The great filter theory is subject to our own filter bubble. As I see it, there are other possibilities - Intelligent life doesn't want to be found - at least by us. Intelligent life tends towards simulation, rather than expansion. Further to the above, we are the only intelligent life in the simulation in which we reside. Intelligent life is far more of an aberration than we realise. Intelligent life is actually ver…

Three of your possibilities are "locations" for the Great Filter, as I read them: > Intelligent life is far more of an aberration than we realise. The filter is between "smart mammal" -> "human-level smarts." So there's lots of planets with lions, tigers and bears, but not talking dinos (or whatever). > Intelligent life is actually very dumb on a macro scale, and falls prey to Malthusian collapse, either by falling i…

We're only "golden" until an unfortunate gamma ray blast occurs somewhere nearby and wipes out life on Earth in moments.

Re: NASA Rover Finds Active and Ancient Organic Chemistry on Mars

#86

Post by swombat »

Houshalter wrote: post #56
Thieum22 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be comforting that considering the Great Filter theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter ) finding life on mars might actually be bad news.

Only if it's independently evolved, if it's a fork of life on Earth then it doesn't tell us anything about the probability of life elsewhere. The great filter is very likely the evolution of multicelluar life and animals, which are unlikely to be found on mars. If we found living animals on mars I would be very concerned about the future of the human race.

Are you saying you're not currently very concerned about the future of the human race?

Re: NASA Rover Finds Active and Ancient Organic Chemistry on Mars

#87

Post by DennisP »

exratione wrote: post #34
madaxe_again wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The great filter theory is subject to our own filter bubble. As I see it, there are other possibilities - Intelligent life doesn't want to be found - at least by us. Intelligent life tends towards simulation, rather than expansion. Further to the above, we are the only intelligent life in the simulation in which we reside. Intelligent life is far more of an aberration than we realise. Intelligent life is actually ver…

The important thing to realize about the Fermi Paradox is that all generalizations about behavior fail automatically as explanatory theories. It only takes one small group within one species to generate a self-replicating probe, at which point all of the galaxy is visited in a few million years. A solution to the Fermi Paradox has to explain why that event has never happened despite the fact that some element of our…

Maybe the first one prevents other intelligent species from arising, and the anthropic principle applies. We're the first, otherwise we wouldn't be here.

Another idea is that basic game theory and physics applies to everyone. It's virtually impossible to defend against attack by objects accelerated near the speed of light. The only way to be safe is to destroy potential threats before they destroy you, and be very very quiet.

Re: NASA Rover Finds Active and Ancient Organic Chemistry on Mars

#88

Post by marcosdumay »

rybosome wrote: post #66
exratione wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The important thing to realize about the Fermi Paradox is that all generalizations about behavior fail automatically as explanatory theories. It only takes one small group within one species to generate a self-replicating probe, at which point all of the galaxy is visited in a few million years. A solution to the Fermi Paradox has to explain why that event has never happened despite the fact that some element of our…

> A solution to the Fermi Paradox has to explain why that event has never happened How do you know that it has not? I'm not seriously asserting that it has, mind you. Just noting that there could be a swarm of radio-silent probes in the Kuiper Belt, in which case we would have no clue whatsoever.

It didn't eat us.

One'd expect self replicant things to grow into every available ninche, however irrelevant it is. Thus there's no self replicant thing consuming our galaxy (or there is, but it's incredibly new).

Re: NASA Rover Finds Active and Ancient Organic Chemistry on Mars

#89

Post by marcosdumay »

raverbashing wrote: post #74
gojomo wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Wikipedia language suggests the existence of perchlorates (discovered in other Martian soil in 2008) could have destroyed organics during the 1976 test heating, thus explaining some of the negative results from Viking – leaving the positive 'Labeled Release' result more credible. That's the interpretation of the paper described at: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100904081050.ht... That article is cu…

This is an interesting interpretation The chlorometane results were a true result after all. However, I have the impression that, organics, in contact with perchlorates (or any strong oxidant) will result in CO2 Also, it was repeated one week later, with no results http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_lander_biological_experi...

> However, I have the impression that, organics, in contact with perchlorates (or any strong oxidant) will result in CO2

With enough perchlorate, it will. But with smaller amounts of it, there's a huge number of possibilities, including products that are more complex than the reactants.

Re: NASA Rover Finds Active and Ancient Organic Chemistry on Mars

#90

Post by givan »

minikites wrote: post #82
givan wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Milder conditions relative to our environment? this is subjective, where do you see complex life and how do you know that complex life requires "milder" conditions or that is rare if we only have ourselves as an example that happen to live in such an environment? What stops bacteria that live in harsh environments to evolve even if probably slower? harsh meaning hard/impossible for ourselves or for life as we know on…

So where is everyone? http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/fermi-paradox.html > That would mean there were 10 quadrillion, or 10 million billion intelligent civilizations in the observable universe. >Our sun is relatively young in the lifespan of the universe. There are far older stars with far older Earth-like planets, which should in theory mean civilizations far more advanced than our own. I think intelligent life is pre…

What evidence? we don't have enough data to draw conclusions on this matter, we barely sent a very limited robot on mars and some probes in the solar system, the universe is huge.

We can't initiate contact because of primitive technology, we barely made it to the moon with huge costs.

Why aren't advanced civilizations that can reach us contact us? we don't know, there are many theories

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox#Explaining_the_pa... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoo_hypothesis

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