When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier? • Hacker News Board

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#81

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft » Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 9:38 PM UTC

Scalestein wrote: post #73

seanstickle wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel for you. Apparently you don't have a boss who can define what they want from you. This is not uncommon, and we're struggling with that ourselves. We've all spent so many years with the belief that putting in hours is the work, that we don't really know what we've hired people to actually do. All your questions are the same questions you have in an TIME + PRESENCE = RESULTS job. What if they decide they want 11…

I'm all for the 'results based' work environment but I think measuring results of work that you hire people to do IS quite hard. A great example is refactoring. Say you hired a dev and he delivered a product that worked but is written terribly (already a question there, how do you gauge that in terms of 'results'?). Now you hire a second dev to clean it up and make it maintainable. How do you evaluate when he has del…

> A great example is refactoring. Say you hired a dev and he delivered a product that worked but is written terribly (already a question there, how do you gauge that in terms of 'results'?). Now you hire a second dev to clean it up and make it maintainable. How do you evaluate when he has delivered the 'results'?

Easy. Lines of code.

The first developer did an awesome jobs, many lines of code were written. The second one is a lousy hack, he earned about $50 (not $50k).

This is ridiculous of course, but it does show how even bad measurements are preferred over non-measurement.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#82

Post by crpatino » Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 10:45 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #30

dirktheman wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here at the number 4 on the list... I work 4 days a week, my wife works 3. My employer also works 4. My day off is awesome, and accounts for a lot of my happiness. And the happiness of my kids, I'm sure! US may be the leading in economy, but we (Northern and Western Europe) are way ahead of you guys when it comes to a healthy work-life balance...

Isn't it all very individual though? What if someone derives happiness and satisfaction from working? Should they be prohibited from working more than a set number of days/hours per week?

You can always work from home if it is your fancy.

It sucks if your employer owns whatever you do offsite, though. Specially if they do not pay overtime.

You see... do not attribute to sloth that which can be explained by envy.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#83

Post by grecy » Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 10:52 PM UTC

fapjacks wrote: post #79

grecy wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least, start the paperwork now to get your citizenship and passport. It only costs a few hundred dollars, and it's like having an ace up your sleeve. You might never use it, but the beauty is it's there if you want it. (I recently did ~18 months of paperwork to get my Polish citizenship and passport. I've never been to Europe, and really don't know if I ever will. But 10 years from now if I want to move t…

I am VERY interested in what you are proposing, but I have no idea where to get more information. Can you please provide me with a couple of links you found useful in doing this?

It all depends on you and your family.

Find out where your relatives are from (which countries), then start investigating the citizenship requirements for those countries. Your embassy for that country will likely even have a "citizenship application" section on their website that lays out exactly what you need and how to go about applying.

In my case, Poland is a country that says you have the right to be a citizen if one of your parents is a citizen. Irrelevant that I've never been there, don't speak the language, etc. etc.

My grandfather was born there and was a citizen before he passed away, so I pressured my Dad endlessly until he got his Polish citizenship (I did half the paperwork for him because he was being lazy....).. then once he had his citizenship I could go ahead and apply for mine.

Obviously every country is going to be different, so it depends on where your relatives are from, and what the citizenship requirements for that country actually are.

Also note if you're in the US, I think the US doesn't allow you to have citizenship from another country (don't quote me on that, I'm not a US citizen - well actually, it looks really strange[1]. I have no idea.)

[1] http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-conside...

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#84

Post by crpatino » Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 11:52 PM UTC

joshdance wrote: post #8

TLDR - No it didn't, they don't know why, it may have improved well-being.

It's not as if they do not have a clue why...

"Why might this be? Rudolf points out previous evidence that in the short term, capping hours often just means employees have to get the same work done in a shorter time, which is likely to be stress-inducing."

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#85

Post by dba7dba » Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 1:43 AM UTC

S Korea just a generation ago was a developing world, with a harsh dictator.

Two generations ago, it was really at the rock bottom nation on the globe in terms of any ranking you can think of (poverty/violence/dictatorship/low-education/etc). Pick any poor nation in Asia/Africa and it was probably doing better than S Korea.

Remember these: History of Korean War, there's no much natural resource to sell off, with 3 powerful nations (who all have either invaded Korea in the past and view it as a potential target) nearby, with N Korea 30 miles from Seoul, AND (get this) no escape route over land in case of a military conflict (S Korea is pretty much an island now and you canNOT walk/drive to flee S Korea),

they better really really get their house in order to survive.

Younger S Korean sociologists/commentators lament about how the intense competition is driving people to commit suicides (yes tragic) but they forget many, many more people died/suffered from poverty/basic-medical-care not that long ago.

With all these in context, no wonder they work.

Btw, it's really really said for older S Korean that are passing these days. They really suffered hard lives and just when their older kids/grandkids are enjoying abundant lives, but they can't really enjoy as much due to age.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#86

Post by 6t6t6 » Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 1:56 AM UTC

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #74

_dark_matter_ wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk about jumping to conclusions. This is both a gross misunderstanding of their culture and government, as well as unsubstantiated claims of causation.

Low regulatory environments with lot of capital and a motivated work force usually equals success. This is why you're on HN and I'm not on swiss-tech-news.com.

Probably, the point is that European and USA folks have different ways to measure success.

I guess that for a Scandinavian or a Swiss guy, working 60 hours a week, and not being able to see their kids grow up, would be a personal failure. No matter how many sport cars he owns.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#87

Post by fapjacks » Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 3:06 AM UTC

grecy wrote: post #83

fapjacks wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am VERY interested in what you are proposing, but I have no idea where to get more information. Can you please provide me with a couple of links you found useful in doing this?

It all depends on you and your family. Find out where your relatives are from (which countries), then start investigating the citizenship requirements for those countries. Your embassy for that country will likely even have a "citizenship application" section on their website that lays out exactly what you need and how to go about applying. In my case, Poland is a country that says you have the right to be a citizen…

Okay, thank you for the clarification. I knew this information previously, I was just hoping you knew of something I didn't. My ancestors came from Switzerland many years ago and using this sort of method wouldn't work for me. I have heard that in Switzerland it is relatively difficult to get citizenship, as I've been a few times and asked around while visiting.

I do know for certain (my wife is Swedish and American) that you are allowed at least dual citizenship as long as you don't present yourself at the border with your passport issued by another country. There are several technicalities which "rescind" your American citizenship, but they mostly are not enforced unless you make a big deal out of it (e.g. turning in your passport to an overseas American embassy and declaring that you are no longer a citizen), but presenting at the border your passport issued by another country has lately been interpreted to mean that you are declaring yourself citizen of that nation. IANAL but many of these kinds of things are not black-and-white and depend largely upon the border agent which you are dealing with.

Again thanks for your reply!

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#88

Post by ahomescu1 » Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 4:09 AM UTC

6t6t6 wrote: post #86

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low regulatory environments with lot of capital and a motivated work force usually equals success. This is why you're on HN and I'm not on swiss-tech-news.com.

Probably, the point is that European and USA folks have different ways to measure success. I guess that for a Scandinavian or a Swiss guy, working 60 hours a week, and not being able to see their kids grow up, would be a personal failure. No matter how many sport cars he owns.

I think he/she means that companies like Google, Apple and Tesla are all US-based, not to mention crazy/niche stuff like Oculus. Europe-based high-profile tech companies (like Nokia and Skype) seem more like outliers than the norm. The US seems to be the "technology king", so to say (disclaimer: I'm not an American).

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#89

Post by grecy » Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 6:29 AM UTC

fapjacks wrote: post #87

grecy wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all depends on you and your family. Find out where your relatives are from (which countries), then start investigating the citizenship requirements for those countries. Your embassy for that country will likely even have a "citizenship application" section on their website that lays out exactly what you need and how to go about applying. In my case, Poland is a country that says you have the right to be a citizen…

Okay, thank you for the clarification. I knew this information previously, I was just hoping you knew of something I didn't. My ancestors came from Switzerland many years ago and using this sort of method wouldn't work for me. I have heard that in Switzerland it is relatively difficult to get citizenship, as I've been a few times and asked around while visiting. I do know for certain (my wife is Swedish and American)…

Can you get Swedish citizenship through your wife?

I'd be surprised if the two of you can't go and live there together and after a while I expect you'd be eligible to apply...

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#90

Post by fapjacks » Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 8:13 AM UTC

grecy wrote: post #89

fapjacks wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, thank you for the clarification. I knew this information previously, I was just hoping you knew of something I didn't. My ancestors came from Switzerland many years ago and using this sort of method wouldn't work for me. I have heard that in Switzerland it is relatively difficult to get citizenship, as I've been a few times and asked around while visiting. I do know for certain (my wife is Swedish and American)…

Can you get Swedish citizenship through your wife? I'd be surprised if the two of you can't go and live there together and after a while I expect you'd be eligible to apply...

Yes, we are moving to Sweden soon, and I'll get my citizenship in a couple of years afterwards with the relative-of-citizen residency clause (i.e. married to and residing in Sweden with with a Swedish citizen). I was just always interested in Swiss citizenship specifically.