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Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

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Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#81

Post by pavel_lishin »

pXMzR2A wrote: post #80
Osiris wrote: post #54

> “What’s noteworthy is no one on the panel said: ‘Hey, wait a minute, we can’t do this,'” he says. “They had some specific concerns about the language of the bill, but there was no outright opposition.” That's pretty surprising given how incredibly conservative/Republican the state of Utah is. I'd be surprised if the bill passed (and if it was it would surely be caught up in litigation), but kudos to someone in such…

> That's pretty surprising given how incredibly conservative/Republican the state of Utah is. Isn't it conservatives that are for guns and their reason is the anti-government militia amendment in the constitution? I'd expect them not to like NSA either.

I'd wager it comes more from a "small government" view, rather than the "gov't taking away my guns".

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#82

Post by toomuchtodo »

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #74
gliese1337 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should that be surprising? Republicans / conservatives are all about personal liberty. And reducing taxes, which seems relevant in this case. The justification given in the article for supporting the bill is that they don't want to support the NSA "on the back of our citizens", after all.

Generally only personal liberty for people like them, tho.

Not sure why you and /u/spacemanmatt were downvoted. Republicans are blocking a bill in the Senate currently to curtail the NSA's surveillance dragnet: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/19/us/nsa-phone-records.html?...

If they're for personal liberty, its not for Joe Public.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#83

Post by toomuchtodo »

dingaling wrote: post #56
anigbrowl wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it that people are willing to believe the NSA/Federal government intercepts and archives the vast bulk of the world's electronics communication, but lacks the capability to sink a well and pull water out of the ground? Evn in the bizarre situation that this were true, the NSA could still have giant data centers in this country by the simple expedient of building them on ships. Sorry, but the comment above is p…

> but lacks the capability to sink a well and pull water out of the ground? But they also have to dispose of the heated water. An ordinance preventing that would cause complications. And if electricity supplies are withheld, they then have to spend more money installing generator plant and ( vetted ) personnel to operate that. > the NSA could still have giant data centers in this country by the simple expedient of bu…

As you mentioned, the discharge of heated water would be regulated by the EPA, depending on the body of water they attempted to discharge it in (similar to how its regulated for coal and nuclear plants that use water for cooling).

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#84

Post by MrZongle2 »

spacemanmatt wrote: post #69
gliese1337 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should that be surprising? Republicans / conservatives are all about personal liberty. And reducing taxes, which seems relevant in this case. The justification given in the article for supporting the bill is that they don't want to support the NSA "on the back of our citizens", after all.

That's not quite accurate. Republicans are all about their personal liberty, at the cost of yours and mine. It's not that surprising that some Republicans favor cutting the NSA's water, it's just bitterly ironic.

Don't confuse Republicans with conservatives: the latter, which generally are for personal liberty for all, are just a subset of the former.

Spend some time in conservative circles and you'll learn that there's not a lot of love for the GOP leadership. Conservatives (both fiscal and social flavors; they too are not just one and the same) vote Republican for the same reason many on the Left vote Democrat: not that they're thrilled with the candidates, but rather they consider them the lesser of two evils.

My point? That just as its unfair and ignorant to paint everyone on the Left as a socialist, you can't simply paint everyone on the right with the same broad brush.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#85

Post by AnimalMuppet »

anigbrowl wrote: post #16
prbuckley wrote: post #3

If every state stood up and passed bills like this the NSA couldnt have giant data centers in this country.

How is it that people are willing to believe the NSA/Federal government intercepts and archives the vast bulk of the world's electronics communication, but lacks the capability to sink a well and pull water out of the ground? Evn in the bizarre situation that this were true, the NSA could still have giant data centers in this country by the simple expedient of building them on ships. Sorry, but the comment above is p…

Getting water in Utah is a bit harder than just sinking a well and pulling water from the ground. Even if you get water, it's likely to have high sand and/or salt content, making it unsuitable for water cooling of electronics.

And as you said,

> I can't take your ideas about policy seriously if you are not connected to practical reality.

Yup.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#86

Post by AnimalMuppet »

vidarh wrote: post #47
optimusclimb wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since HN is not transparent about downvoting, other than that only certain users have the ability - I'd love the feedback on the reasons for the down votes. How a country could exist without an organization that pays attention to what the rest of the world is up to towards the goal of keeping itself "secure" is beyond me. What I wrote was a fictional circumstance which I thought explained to others how you'd arrive a…

You're changing the subject. No other country has intelligence services with even a fraction of the reach of the NSA, so clearly countries can exist without an NSA class agency. Whether a country could exist without an organization that pays attention to what the rest of the world is up to is another matter. It's a role served by diplomatic services, and where even the most low tech intelligence agency can provide su…

It's not that simple.

Arguably, NSA-type stuff (SIGINT) saved our behinds in World War II. Enigma let us read the German intentions, and Purple let us know what the Japanese were planning. The battle of Midway, for example, could have been completely different without SIGINT. So there's good historical precedence that we need something like the NSA.

On the other hand, we didn't figure out what the Japanese were up to by collecting metadata on domestic telephone calls. That is, some SIGINT activities are arguably essential, and some are... otherwise. The "otherwise" ones are both more intrusive to personal privacy, and less effective at national defense.

So one can be in favor of having the NSA, and against the NSA as it has become.

Side note: If there's ever another successful attack on the scale of 9/11, you're really going to see the US move toward a police state...

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#87

Post by wdr1 »

Osiris wrote: post #54

> “What’s noteworthy is no one on the panel said: ‘Hey, wait a minute, we can’t do this,'” he says. “They had some specific concerns about the language of the bill, but there was no outright opposition.” That's pretty surprising given how incredibly conservative/Republican the state of Utah is. I'd be surprised if the bill passed (and if it was it would surely be caught up in litigation), but kudos to someone in such…

> That's pretty surprising given how incredibly conservative/Republican the state of Utah is

Isn't Ted Cruz held out as incredibly conservative/Republican? He voted "Yes" on the recent NSA reform:

http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/113/senate/2/282

There are many other conservatives who have major issues with the NSA. Don't believe the hype that their principles are simply anti-left.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#88

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

MrZongle2 wrote: post #84
spacemanmatt wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not quite accurate. Republicans are all about their personal liberty, at the cost of yours and mine. It's not that surprising that some Republicans favor cutting the NSA's water, it's just bitterly ironic.

Don't confuse Republicans with conservatives : the latter, which generally are for personal liberty for all, are just a subset of the former. Spend some time in conservative circles and you'll learn that there's not a lot of love for the GOP leadership. Conservatives (both fiscal and social flavors; they too are not just one and the same) vote Republican for the same reason many on the Left vote Democrat: not that th…

To be a social conservative is to necessarily want a return to the world in which women and minorities knew their place.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#89

Post by jokoon »

spacemanmatt wrote: post #73
jokoon wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they're not growing corn. I mean what would the NSA need water for ? Drinking ? Can't they just ship bottled water ? Do they really have that much personnel there ?

I'm slightly surprised this is a question. Water is part of many cooling systems. They're running a server farm. Surely they have some other uses for it, but cooling their server farm is the big, obvious application.

since when does cooling consumes that much water ?

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#90

Post by anigbrowl »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #85
anigbrowl wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it that people are willing to believe the NSA/Federal government intercepts and archives the vast bulk of the world's electronics communication, but lacks the capability to sink a well and pull water out of the ground? Evn in the bizarre situation that this were true, the NSA could still have giant data centers in this country by the simple expedient of building them on ships. Sorry, but the comment above is p…

Getting water in Utah is a bit harder than just sinking a well and pulling water from the ground. Even if you get water, it's likely to have high sand and/or salt content, making it unsuitable for water cooling of electronics. And as you said, > I can't take your ideas about policy seriously if you are not connected to practical reality. Yup.

When you have the Army Corps of Engineers and a massive budget at your disposal, such problems tend to become marginal. It seems to have escaped everyone's attention that the Utah data center is only a couple of miles away from Utah's largest freshwater lake and there's a smaller lake only around a mile away, which already serves Camp William. The nearest river is only about 500 yards from the data center.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/NSA+Utah+Data+Center/@40.4...

Tell me again why this would be such a problem for the Federal Government in the unlikely event that Utah actually signed this into law and it remained in force in 2021. I'm pretty sure that water access was something taken into account when they selected the location from the data center in the first place, along with the possibility of the water supply being interrupted by sabotage in the event of war.

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